124: Money Talks #29 | Clubhouse | Jay Z, Jack Dorsey and Bitcoin | Fintech SPACs and Digital Assets

0:07 Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend and this is money, never sleeps. We look inside the minds of entrepreneurs, have the crossover of startups and a prize Finance technology and Life as We Know It This episode of money never sleeps is sponsored by p80 fintech the training partner. The team mystifies fintech and digital Finance for financial services, professionals own Fitzgerald and I are back with another money talk segment. This week, we talk through my first experience. On clubhouse, Jay-Z and Jack Dorsey, partnering on bitcoin for Africa and India, fintech valuations and spax cities, fat finger and a bit more on this week's episode of money. Never sleeps.

0:48 Hey Owen, how you doing? Yeah, pretty good. Pretty good busy week, push. Good busy. Not that crap busy. And I like this by jobs and Bodywork busy. Yeah, yeah, it could go 24/7. Couldn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. I was up till 1:00 last night just break in the back of an investment committee. Document really interesting project which is nice. But just like, you know, if you know yourself, you need to time and space with a bit of quietness to actually write some of these things to articulate to kind of story and what the company is doing, its very early stage so it needs a good kind of narrative around it. So I just I needed the time and hours to put into a last night to get the yeah, it is all about the story. Yeah. Everything's got to have a beginning middle and end. Shout out to Ali. Judge who got me into podcasting, two and a half years ago.

1:30 And she's three and a half years ago, now, nearly and that did one with him recently. And he just reminded me, this is a story, right? It's got to have a beginning middle and end. And if you can stick to that discipline with everything you do, it's going to make your stuff more interesting, right? Yeah and I find you look in terms of the stuff I'm doing I get to pitch it to a committee so So the story bit, The Narrative bit, I'm great at, but trying to put that in a 30 page document I can do two-minute elevator pitch, but trying to Rice that story out in a 30 page, document is more of a challenge. Yeah, it is. It is, I was looking tonight at two things before we started recording at 9:09 p.m. here the seat, fine evening, February 17th. And it was a start-up deck. That was a wonderful 12.

2:14 Pages long may be no smaller than 20 point. I want only a few words on each page, it stuck with me. I could probably tell that story and about 10 minutes later, I'm looking at a deck from a big financial institution, describing their business in 52 slides in very small, right? Yeah, on the topic of brevity, let's get to it. We've got a few stories to cover tonight. Few things that we found over the last couple of days that we thought were interesting follow-ups from other things. We've done before that, we talked about brand new topics things that are happening out there. The first one that I I wanted to look at was an article from sifted that was just today. That is titled. Why can't Europe build a clubhouse.

2:55 So Clubhouse has been making the rounds all over the media for the last month or so. It is a social media app to put it very high level to me. It kind of feels like a informal conference. Call / live podcast a bit, okay? And we'll get a bit more into that. But the sifted piece was basically saying, why can't this happen in Europe? Why does all this stuff need to happen in Silicon Valley, in the three key reasons that they said were one. It's a fragmented market and I talked about this a little bit as well or hate it. When I say, I talked about this, it's just gonna say it, there's something about Europe, which is because there's 27 States in Europe, 27 countries, you know, sovereign states.

3:42 There are I don't know how many languages, at least a few more than that, right? And it's really hard to connect the dots with b2c propositions. When you have to translate to whole bunch of different languages and with different cultures and different ways of doing things, right? So that was reason, one reason to European investors are not as familiar at building and scaling social media platforms, which is a fair point. You know, I think Tick-Tock is probably the only one that is scaled outside of the US. Third point, which I thought was a little bit funny which was perhaps Europe is to snobbish. Right. And that we couldn't be bothered with such frivolous things as helping people to connect early serious.

4:24 Yes. Looking at arts in the Louvre, you know. So those were the three things that were pointed out. Have you put much thought into this? Yeah, look at smoke. I think that they're Fair points. Like, we look at you or up and I talk to my clients and working with him, we say, look at the common market similar regulation, it should make it Market entry easy in some ways, absolutely, but clearly in other ways we are talking about 27, different state. It's different language requirements, at the very least, different cultural requirements like. So it is a challenge and then to the clubhouse example, they were able to raise what 10 million from Andreessen Horowitz without anything. Like, literally not intuitive part of the first kind of very early version of it, but they raised 10 million 100 million valuation or something. I think what a numbers.

5:07 So, and they've had the benefit and of the increase in heart heavily, promoting them and pushing them. They were some of the earliest users on it, so they brought users to the platform. You don't get that. Going to scale our that kind of reputation almost behind some of the European VCS, that you would have with the likes of Anna driessen, or Sequoia supervised, summons super feces, they're celebrities almost, you know, and in name. So you don't get that same kind of following behind it either. So I think there's that element to it and I don't know what probably disregard the snobbish bit. I think the other the other two are ya know for? Yeah. I think so. I think so what's their business model. How are they making money? Add we sell ads. Say something like. Yeah.

5:48 It's going down my favorite, a new term which is a recurring Revenue. It'll be a subscription model I believe is, you know, subscribe for a certain amount access because what smart about it is similar to Twitter is that like, you can join a club house which I think they had Elon Musk and Kanye in a conversation recently, you know so at a certain point that content is going to go behind an equivalent of a pay wall and you're going to have to pay for access to the more high-profile. Yeah, that makes guess that makes us. I mean sifted themselves have already started doing that just this week. Started going into articles and saying up, this is pay wall. So get people hooked and then Unleash the Beast of honey and make them pay first time Clubhouse user today.

6:29 Rudy for lot, from voice of fintech who we had on way back episode, 70, something shout out to Rudy, he invited me into his room today, that he was doing future Tech weekly and I actually got an invite from Ahmed. El Barky, who set up a Business in Dublin here, called we code for you. So shout out to Ahmed, he's a good guy and he was in the not even accelerator not last year the year before. Okay, cool. So I'm in iPhone only. You got to set up your profile. Start following a few people, pick out a few topics, whatever. Right. So Rudy kindly invited me into his, he had a couple of people on that. We're talking about a few different fintech topics.

7:10 That's Rudy's thing is voice of fintech and he invited me into the audience. Then he kind of said, Pete, listen, I know I didn't tell In advance about what some of these questions may be. But, do you want to answer a couple of questions? I said? Yeah, sure, absolutely. So, for the first half hour that I was on, it was like listening to a live podcast, right? I'm in the room there's probably 10 12 15 other people in the room and there's Rudy and then two others that he had invited in his speakers. And then he said, Pete do you want to come in and join? And he asked me a couple of questions on a B2B versus b2c fintech as well as we got into a little bit of ESG. G Waters, I've been working on that recently with a couple of folks so interesting could have been recorded and perhaps publishes a podcast, I think so, right? So did I have time to do that today? It was 5:00.

8:00 It was an hour before dinner. I figured what the hell I might as well just do it and I'm glad I did. So I'm going to be looking to do a bit more of that just because it was interesting thinking on your feet and hearing some topics that just in the normal course your day which is almost like I equated it to Flipping through the channels 15 20 years ago and finding Bull Durham on TV, right? You'd stop and you watch, you had no idea that you'd be watching Bull Durham now except for this this is you know a movie. You haven't seen before a conversation, you have it participated in before so I thought it was it was pretty interesting and I'd look to keep using it right? Yeah. Okay. Cool. Because I mean it sounds like a really strong on the community side and it's a great way to kind of build communities around things. Yeah.

8:46 But again does See limitations being iPhone only, so I wouldn't be able to use them. I think that's just to get started, it's just get started. But I mean just some of the things that came up that we're talking about was Elon Musk with Tesla obviously and their big investment in Bitcoin. The last couple of weeks. We'll talk about that in a bit and one of the speaker's was saying that does Bitcoins electricity usage, make it anti ESG, right, environmental social and governance, right? And that would be using so much electricity. Your carbon footprint of Bitcoin is Because of the electricity for mining. So does that then kick Tesla out of ESG portfolio, right? Which would be a pretty big deal because he has few metrics are pretty important to those. Portfolio managers that are managing ESG portfolios. Yeah.

9:32 Right. I just thought that was that there was some logic to it. Absolutely. But I was thinking, what about the electricity usage of AWS, right? Are you going to kick Amazon out of ESG portfolios? Now, I don't know if Amazon is in ES3 portfolios, but But it's a much, much bigger topic, just in a nutshell. Yes, G data that you measure to determine the ESG ratings of a company are basically all the non-financial data of a company. So all the financial data generate ends up with the financial statements. All the non-financial data well, that is now kind of falling into a bucket called ESG, right? Which is much bigger than what people originally had envisage around measuring, the environmental impact of a company, the social impact of the company and how well, it's governed, right?

10:16 Which is a big thing. The FTS into digital Collectibles, came up and FTS. Non fungible tokens is a big, big, big topic, you know, to be talking about that with a couple of folks more recently, I think we're going to get into that future episodes. We got someone lined up to come, talk to us about digital art. Yeah, definitely, which we got going on, so we'll save that one for when we get into that conversation because it's a bit lengthy to get into that. So if these thoughts are germinating in my mind because of that clubhouse tonight, and I'm going to be able to pursue a few threads because of that and probably provide some better guidance to the startups that I work with. Because those thoughts determinate. Well, that was Clubhouse. Great.

10:57 If that was just a random Wednesday, I'll go with it. But I think actually in the absence of conferences and events and stuff. I'm thinking back to money, 20, 22 years ago and amount of like side conversations at events and panel conversations where you got were really interesting discussions going on. Like those things aren't Happening. Now, does limited number of virtual events where by by the sounds of It was almost like being at a live event, was it? Absolutely was in the fact that was audio. Only makes it much more manageable, right? Yeah. It's phone only, you know, you're going to have better quality signal on your phone. When you got Wi-Fi and you got mobile, even gonna host doing jobs the same way. I consume podcast at the moment, when I went for a walk or doing things while the kids are around, like it's ideal for that. So, clearly do something serious to or should I look forward to getting my own invited some point? Yeah.

11:43 But you don't have an iPhone. No, I don't know. I sent, I sent my last invite to bury Breton. Shout out to bury. Yeah, I accidentally sent one to Dave Cunningham, but he was already in, so, you know, Dave Cunningham from City to do it, guys. Shout out to Dave to, I know he's a listener anywho on to the next story. This one is a fun, one Jay-Z and Jack dorsey's. Bitcoin fund for Africa and India. So this was shared by Dan runty in his tropical newsletter, which is the business of hip-hop isn't called the cops. Probably read it every week but I picked up on it this week and saw that. So this is basically Jay-Z and Dorsey getting together and saying listen we are starting up this Bitcoin trust and putting 500 Bitcoin into it between the two of them which is currently worth twenty three point six million.

12:28 This was in TechCrunch, I think it was just on the 12th of February so it's an endowment called the be trust with Abby being the Bitcoin sign and to quote them, the fun will be set up as a blind irrevocable. Trust Dorsey said adding that the duo won't be giving away any direction to the team. They are looking to hire three board members so Guess who applied yours, truly do better basis of a a chair roll and independent directorship that I have with a leading cryptocurrency service provider as well as my board, roll with pivot, and pivot are doing great things in Africa. Bit are enabling migrants, support their families back, home, cheaper and safer. Shout out to all the wall. She's been on this podcast with us in the past.

13:10 He's founder and CEO. I'm on his board. And they are really enabling those that have left home from the African continent. And from other, It's around the world to go live in economies where there is more job opportunity may make money and send it back home. Pivot allows you to do that through cash, right? Where you can just send the cash that you make back and pay your mother's health care bill. Get it to a bank account back home wherever it needs to go and do that. Digitally? Alright, so on the basis of those two things I said, hey, I'm supremely qualified to be on the board of the Bitcoin trading. So we'll see what comes through on that. It was like a three-line job application on a Google form, right? So I sent that out. But I mean, just again that merging of hip-hop and business, right? Yeah, with Jay-Z.

13:53 Yep. And dorsey's. Big enough lunch will be side. He's very focused on Africa. Like I said, I'm a big fan of both of them so I only hope it works. Yeah, I mean there is a talk right now that India is looking again to ban Bitcoin perhaps but we'll see what comes of that but I think the idea is that with Bitcoin and particularly just seeing Elon Musk and Tesla and what they're doing recently and that Looking at PayPal. The idea is that, if you build up an inventory of Bitcoin, right? It becomes more of an asset that you would use to do things with rather than just holding it as a treasury asset, right? Or looking at it as an investment and when you have an inventory of it you're probably more willing to, like I said, pay for things with it but also accept it as a form of payment. And that's what a Tesla are looking to do with it. And the more that it becomes part of the Day-to-day business of different economies which is still there's a long Arc to that Journey.

14:54 So yeah, we'll see what comes of that but I will let everyone know if I get your job. Absolutely. They can live stream, your aunt. I will. That'll be a lot of fun on clubhouse. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Or we could do it right here on Riverside. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the next door I want to take a look at here. Fintech valuation multiples with spax? This was in the long take newsletter or the fintech blueprint. From Lex. Celyn on the 15th of February, just this past Monday base. Saying the bank's trade at 10 to 20 times earnings, right? Earnings being the key word there fintax, and private Market deals. Go forward at 20 to 100 times revenues, right? Because it's software, right, that was what was quoted in in the newsletter, which there's obviously some rationale to and I never had thought about it too much.

15:41 When people said to me, why are we evaluating private Market deals and fintech at you know, on the Peoples of Revenue, rather multiples of earnings. And I said, well, a lot of them have no earnings, so you got to do them on a multiple to something. Yeah. Right. But I did hadn't thought about the fact that when you're selling software in the cost, is already gone into, developing that software, there's a lot of profit and every deal that you do so revenues, probably more, you know, a more consistent, number two to measure rather than earnings. So what that means is that if banks are trading at 10 to 20 times earnings, but when fintax are in private Market deals at 20 to 100 times Revenue, if you just assume a In Tech margin, that's 15 x average for banks trading. That's a 500x for a fintech that is entering the public markets through ass pack or a special purpose. Acquisition Corporation, the way these things work is that an investor forms, a company raises a bunch of money, 300 million to a billion, seems to be or even higher than a billion. Seems to be the figure and then goes public with it and buys a late Market deal company.

16:49 And that's the way that that company goes public and it's looking like I saw this other piece today. I forget who wrote it, that said something to the effect of for the year 2021. It looks like the SPAC deals will already surpassed that the basic IPO deals, somewhere in the region of 50 billion to 25 billion which is a pretty big deal. Some of the names are talking about payoneer payments provider in the u.s. so Phi, Apex clearing who are some of the plumbing behind Robin Hood and money lying. Be another one. So who is this pack champion of the world? Yeah Moscow. But yeah, he's the big spec King out there. Is this going to change things remarkably going forward? Do you think?

17:29 No, I think like you said it's another option. I think it took to just seems to be plenty of money out there t. The multiples are interesting and I suppose it's is it a way to take somebody's companies public that may not have necessarily wanted to go public or they may not have had a path to that yet. This is the way to do with that. You know, they're doing it in a favorable way. Way for themselves. What company is got to turn down effectively in approach from the likes of a shamash with the funding to bring it public as opposed to maybe going in our traditional. Yeah, I'm with you now, I'm thinking about it. So the IPO method itself, heard someone describe it is, it's just a massive wealth. Transfer is all it is right. You got a bunch of people buying in, at the IPO price in the market and then it skyrockets, not all of them do, but a lot of them do and people are buying along the way and buying and then selling it.

18:18 The way. So all that is, it's a you open up on the market at 25 and clothes on day. One at 100, you've had $75 per share in value transfer between people just buying and selling. Yeah. Right. With a direct listing, you are bringing shares to market. And just saying, listen, it's just going to start trading, right? And, you know, there there's no big pre-order book, no big Investment Bank involved. None of that. It's just, we're going to open these shares up for trading so that we can use the capital markets with our equity in order to fund. A business going forward. Wonderful great with this pack. You kind of get a little bit of both, right. You get that premarket investment before things go public and, you know, I guess the investors who take that risk on the way in when this back is first, founded are the ones that enjoy the most upside, right?

19:07 So you get a little bit of that without the old-school Investment Banking model, that is used to bring an IPO to Market and do all the road shows in that kind of stuff beforehand. Pretty getting better value. Then from that investor group, then going down to the Roadshow root with a JP Morgan or whoever in terms of what they're bringing to your business ordered on the road evaluation piece is interesting. I think, because like, you look at a typical bank and where's the real upside with a Traditional Bank, you know? But then you look at some of the fintechs and we talk about who pioneered there with any of those. There's potential upside, as they kind of diversify your build-out functionality, because their software there is, and it's the ability to adapt the ability to Pivot. It.

19:48 And I'm not going to get into the nft example. Today, it had something to do with baseball cards. I will actually because it's very quick. And it was basically, once you get that old school cardboard baseball card, into the digital realm, where it is unique, it is scarce, and they're obviously limited issue. And you have individuals consumers collectors, whoever that appreciate that way of having a collectible and owning a collectible, it's Limitless, what you can do. Because you were now in the digital world and it's not just the static piece of cardboard, what you can link to that is just unlimited. And I think that that's a lot of the thinking going on around on fungible tokens right now with fintech, right? When you take that old school banking model, right, based upon paper and old pipes and plumbing, and things moving around and, you know, in boxes and outbox is still on people's desks and fax machines and printing things out in different color paper.

20:46 So people don't Screw up, right? And know that the pink is for a by of the yellow is for a cell, right? When you move things out of that environment, you're creating so many more monetization opportunities for what you're doing. The data are generating. Its I'm not saying it's Limitless, like what's his name Bradley Cooper in the movie, but you know, more more upside. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's the best way to put it and but, you know, yet the valuations are scary, but I think we talked about this in the last six months that I think all bets are off. Off with those old economic textbooks on how values perceived in a company, which again, is just, you know, scary to this brain that heard this story back in 1998 with, you know, the old economy stocks and new economy, stocks that turned out to be the.com bubble stocks, right?

21:35 But you know, the only way we know the story there and how it all unfolded. This episode of money never sleeps sponsored by p80 fintech demystifying, fintech and digital Finance for financial services professionals. P80 fintech enable Financial Services professionals to transform their capabilities into the digital age with dedicated virtual training programs geared towards those. It can develop deliver and monitor optimally customized, user experiences, balance by appropriate, governance, control and oversight to learn more about. P80 fintech. Go to money, never sleeps. .I e /p 80 Finn Tech. Couple of others that we thought were interesting City lost their legal battle over half a billion in a funds transfer gaffe where I think they Redeemed by accident a Revlon Bond when it wasn't meant to be paid back.

22:33 It was just the interest that should have been paid on it. So there was it in a court ruling. Basically, the court said, sorry, you know, you can't have the money back so it was 900 million dollars they sent and that they got 400 back or they managed to hold. Hunters are not have that sent fully, but I saw it because the New York Times had information on today and they were saying that. Yeah. It was down to some contractor, taking the wrong box on some digital kind of process, you know. No, major will probably has not digital process right, which implies that the person who did it was a clerk, I'm sure their job title is not clerk, but they have a 6i is kind of process and the judges like you have a process I wouldn't say like it's ridiculous but at the same time it's more ridiculous because I had an incident not too dissimilar in my old Bank.

23:18 Um days, which was maybe 11 or so ten years ago now, which related to fawns being sent a before they were received by the bank I worked in and it was 20 million. So we were left in a 20 million position - 20 million position overnight on our balance sheet and everyone kicked up murdered and next day but like we should have been able to release the phones and it became it was down to a, I get a phone call from kind of payments team and my happy to process this payment and I just say, yep, because I was expecting it to go out. I was expecting the Fonz in and that was it and like it's still happening. They is no, I mean product line. Decisions are made the same way. Like I remember it at back in my banking days, looking at a new product, called Bond clearing, I'll get into what that is. But for the level of bond trades that were being settled, that you could basically lose your entire revenue for one year from having that product live within the bank by a Friday screw up, right?

24:13 Because by the time Monday rolls around the interest charged on that to get that settled properly in the market. You just Wiped out everything because the size and scale that you're dealing with because he's markets all settle manually to absolutely ridiculous. And this is come up a couple of times over the last couple of weeks, looking at how inefficient the public markets are not in terms of trading and price Discovery and all those types of things. But it's after the trade, it's the post trade that. So many of these things that exist, that people don't know about things that happen behind Robin Hood during the GameStop pandemonium that we don't, These same problems in the crypto markets. Now, the crypto markets are young obviously, right? But they trade 24/7, the trade is the settlement, you know, the everything is pre-funded, right?

24:59 And that is good discipline. Now, all of the momentum is going towards this type of environment with it, digital asset, businesses, that I'm working with, like, the guys like fund admin chain Gaza, qpq, they're working on all these types of things in order to make these public markets, far more efficient Far more digital and far more like crypto dare. I say now, Greg to would roll over in his he's not in bed right now and he's definitely not in a grave yet. But by choosing founder qpq, you know, for me to equate him to the efficiency of what he calls, what does he call? It that coin not Bitcoin you know, he's going to reach out and strangle me across Dublin but I think it actually it ties into what we just talked about around evaluations because like a lot of those examples we gave their Plumbing, their infrastructure, you know? And that's it.

25:46 I so much value is still under so much. You'd still be brought and Innovation to still be brought in financial services in that infrastructure and plumbing piece that people don't even realize kind of from the outside. Everything is focused on the direct consumer to sexy stuff but actually like infrastructure and a plumbing behind a lot of these things still is so far from being digitized, absolutely, it's going to take a while, but it's there are enough Pioneers out there enough now. Series E going to direct listing, going to IPO, whatever being brought to Market in this back. These are mature. Sure companies that are growing up across these blurring line between digital assets and fintech, which is pretty cool because that's my life besides my family, right? So anywho one other thing, just on the, on the topic of crypto, a crazy week, it's been Bitcoin.

26:34 Surpassed 50,000 yesterday when I was on the phone with GC wouldn't like me to mention that. Because he said Pete, if you ever say anything about this conversation that you and I had, I'm going to deny everything in court. So I won't mention who I was talking to as Bitcoin crossed over But he knows who he is. Well I'll see if I can get him to listen to this one. He might like it. Yeah, but Goldman Sachs bny Mellon, Deutsche Bank Visa Mastercard, Morgan Stanley, Twitter, Uber. All these companies talking about either providing crypto services or investing through their treasuries into crypto. I thought they there's this guy Jeff doorman at ARCA. They have their newsletter called, that's our to satoshi's and what he said was Bitcoin gets all the headlines while other digital assets off.

27:18 Often make investors and companies all of the money. We love Bitcoin. But again, it's a very simple thesis with a limited future Evolution, right? It's your gateway into crypto. Now, is the biggest most valuable, because stalwart, that is the most mature at this stage. So, yeah, it was a massively crazy week, but I don't expect things to really slow down. At this point, I'm not looking forward to catching my breath longer k 100K for year-end isn't definitely probably I know what's causing this week on Twitter. I saw me was on one MSNBC or something being interviewed do today, but he Then underground by the end of October. Yeah. He's I missed this. I missed the announcement back in. I think it was October November that, you know, he's getting a rolling phoned up and going so that's awesome to see that.

28:00 So yeah. But those were the key stories for tonight, mr. Fitzgerald. Yeah, plenty then I had one small one and I was more just amusing. When I saw the headline in the Irish independent this week about Kim customers are angry as revolute. Opposites fees for ATM withdrawals and deposits and stuff was shocked. Shocking news. Quarry Bank, you know, raises fees to make money. Yeah, three Bank, free Bank exactly free brain, crazes fees like okay well like nobody's up nobody soil. Like we said get everybody hooked and then just Unleash the Beast, you know and get everyone paying that's one we talked about this before. What's happening every day? Did you know I remember way back in the day seeing that we're going to start charging you 99 cents a month for this and they never did. Yeah, I remember Facebook kind of squash that the, you know, they say that one is good, I missed that but I can kind of rely on you to keep tabs on all things revolute.

28:48 Oh yeah. Absolutely. I did. Actually, I did actually get to use revolute last over the weekend where I had, I was buying a bike helmet and the shop said we only do cash or Revolution and I'm like, really okay like yep only cash or of least you only cash but so many people came to were coming through saying, hey, you know, you guys got to take revolute. And so the woman at the bike shop, I was kind of embarrassed. She had to walk me through how I set up, pay people near you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's skaters because if you only do it every so often, you forget the next time. But like, if because I've had to do that on my own, that's bizarre. Like that's bizarre to say only cash or revving. Yeah, exactly one of the other and and you know what she's walking me through that and say, no, no, not there, not there. No, no that button that button.

29:35 I'm like don't don't, you know, him in fintech obviously not expert in it. All right. Well, I think we're going to call it a night there. What do you think? So what do we got another bunch of interviews coming up over the next few weeks. I think we're scheduled Out for the next two months, at least at this stage. So I know That does it for this week folks and you can learn more about the stories we covered in the show, notes on our website, money never sleeps. .I, so check us out online and subscribe to our weekly. Money, never sleeps newsletter as well. Also, thanks to Conan Brophy, from create sound for mixing and editing. This episode Conan is an excellent medium and to get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast.

30:16 As for me I'm the founding partner at norio ventures and I'm an early stage startup advisor, an investor focused on fintech and digital assets like to talk me about your business. Drop me a voicemail on money never sleeps that I finally till next time. Thanks for listening. See you