296: The Unstoppable Founder | Allard Luchsinger from Techstars

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Money never sleeps, pal.
Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend and

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This is Money Never Sleeps.
We look inside the minds of

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entrepreneurs and at the
crossover of startups,

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enterprise, finance, technology
and life as we know it.

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This week I'm joined by my long
time Techstars colleague and

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friend Allard Luxinga, Managing
Director of the ABN Amro and

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Techstars Future of Finance
Accelerator in Amsterdam.

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Allard and I have been on each
other's investment committees

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for years, so this one's a bit
different.

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We know each other well, we've
traded notes across dozens of

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startups, and we've seen each
other call the shot on what

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makes an unstoppable founder
money.

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Never sleeps.
Well, in this episode, we go

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deep on Allard's journey from
building startups in the early

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Internet days to running one of
Europe's most respected fintech

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accelerators.
We talk founder conviction,

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investing in Europe, investing
in Africa, the parallels between

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AI today and the early days of
fintech, and how mindfulness and

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meditation can give both
founders and investors a

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competitive edge.
This one is full of hard won

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insight, but delivered with
Allard's signature clarity and

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calm.
And it's a conversation I think

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a lot of us in this game will
find helpful.

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So let's get into it with Allard
Luchsinger.

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All right here on Money Never
Sleeps.

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Listen, Allard, you've been part
of the venture industry now for

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the past 15 years and in the
ecosystem in a number of

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different ways.
Maybe start with how you found

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your way into this, into venture
and and why you're doing it.

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I was a founder.
I started my first what we then

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called Internet business in in
99 and it was AB to B

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marketplace for the trade in new
passenger cars.

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And we were three guys and we
didn't know anything about cars,

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but it was the Internet and we
had three years of working

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experience.
So we knew everything and we

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were going to revolutionize the
global car trading industry.

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That was the goal.
And we did extremely well for a

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period.
So it was an amazing ride and it

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was like the full Internet
bubble ride.

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And then in the end we died
pretty spectacularly.

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They imploded, which is probably
my biggest learning.

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I was the CEO.
We bought it until for like 50

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people and we raised €30
million, which is all money at

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that time.
And then like in one day, weird

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day, the whole business model
fell apart and that happened.

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Yeah.
So we in the end we found

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product market fit by like
basically our platform

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facilitating the trade between
continental European car

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dealers, specifically from the
Netherlands, whole bolt cars

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with the steering wheel on the
wrong side, as we would say and

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then send them over exported
them to the UK.

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And that was a tax arbitrage,
which is weird enough at that

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time, 35% arbitrage, you had all
these huge, not car supermarkets

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with these cars boiling from
another Europe in the UK.

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And we facilitated that trade.
And that was like, we, we, we

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did 4000 cars on our platform
And I this was the thing.

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And then the UK # dropped by 10%
against the euro in a week.

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And our buyers in the UK just
stopped picking up the phone,

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stopped picking up the cars.
And so we had all the Mama Bob

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dealers in an eligible 200 cars
with the steering on the wrong

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side, parking them in
neighborhoods because they

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couldn't.
So and then their buyers just

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wouldn't pick up the the cars
anymore and we thought we had

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contracts, but it turned out
like these contracts meant

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nothing.
So within a week turned out that

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our whole business model was
basically totally, I go the

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basic mistake in our business
model and structural wrong and

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we lost all our buyers and all
our sellers and that was it.

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We basically then I fired half
of the people tried to kind of

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keep on going with that, but we
never really recovered

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everything went very badly and
we closed down a year from then.

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So I did the what we then call B
to C thing back to consulting,

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back to banking.
You might remember that and and

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then started another company a
few years later, which is a

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fintech company and and now I
actually had some experience

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doing startups and two guys that
I didn't know we got we got

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introduced, started his company
and they needed a third Co

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founder who actually knew
something about building a

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company.
So we started this this company,

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which is basically the Robin
Hood model 0 Commission trading

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in 2005 with one other guy from
Amsterdam, we left for US to

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build a business.
He didn't know anything about

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online brokers in the US, but we
thought, hey, you know, why not?

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How hard can it be?
Turned out to be very hard, of

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course, but you know, we kept on
going at it.

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We actually couldn't make that 0
Commission model work because

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customer acquisition costs were
just too high.

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We didn't have that new platform
that Robin Hood had later, which

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was the iPhone, but ended up
building a quite a sizable

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company.
And the largest investor in that

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company was actually a family
office out of the Netherlands.

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And during the financial crisis,
which hit us like full on a year

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into the business, like, you
know, first, first business, it

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was the talk combo bursting that
hit us.

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Timing is everything right, but
this time our family office

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investor turned out to be like
super loyal and committed to the

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business and really helps us
through that difficult phase and

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allowed us to keep on building
that business.

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And at some point we left the
operational management of the

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company.
We were then 120 people, all of

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them from the US and all of them
knowing much more about all and

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brokers probably than we did.
And so at some point my Co

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friend and I left operational
management, went on the board

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and then this investor asked me
to build a fintech focused VC

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with him.
But that got me into venture.

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That was in 2011.
And this is a time that like

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when he asked me to do this,
like, hey, I've got this thesis,

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which is basically financial
services and the Internet and

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you know, it's going to be a big
thing.

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And of course, you know, with
the company we built, Secco,

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that was his first investment in
that, but he really believed in

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it.
And so I said yes to that and

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built this VC firm called
Philosophy Fintech Ventures and

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we invested mainly in Europe and
in Africa laid seed Series A

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which would now more be I seed
almost presumed and seed right.

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And we had a great run of that.
We knew the for 10 years and

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became a fund.
We took outside investors in and

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at some point that they do
really didn't work for him.

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I became a partner in that and
after 10 years we broke up a

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friendly breakup after 16 years
in the fintech space.

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I actually didn't know what I
want to wanted to continue there

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what I wanted to raise a fund.
I didn't take a sabbatical and

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was happily in my sabbatical
during COVID.

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And then at some point text
article and they're like, Hey,

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we're looking for someone with
fintech founder experience,

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Fintech investor experience in
Amsterdam available.

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And you know, if possible some
affinity with AB and Emerald

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Bank, which I had all of
affinity with because I, my

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first startup, I actually
partnered with them and as a

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consultant at my very first job,
I, I worked with them very

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extensively.
I think there's one guy in the

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world that fits that profile and
you have all the phone.

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That's me.
So I, I didn't see yesterday

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immediately.
Yeah, because I was working on

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some other projects and I knew
that was like a very low

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probability project that we were
going to acquire this funds

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platform.
And I gave it like 25% that I

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will work.
But I, I told Texas, I need to

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see this through and they told
me why it doesn't work out, you

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know, check back in.
And because of COVID, they

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postponed the program for half a
year because didn't want to do

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another one like fully remote.
And so there was still time for

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me to get on board for that
program in 2022.

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So this is how I started with
Tech Stars.

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And there was a this Fintech
accelerator program with

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Barclays that ran in London for
about 10 years and that had come

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to an end.
And the at that time MD in

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London moved over to Amsterdam
to start the program with ABN

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Amro and basically took all the
assets and the mentors and the

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programming and amazingly
continued that Fintech with the

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European Fintech program in
Amsterdam.

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And I followed him, him up.
This was the first in person

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program.
And we're now going for our

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fifth year, my 4th year running
this, this Fintech accelerator,

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Texas Fintech accelerator out of
Amsterdam.

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All right.
And something you said they're

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back a couple minutes ago struck
A chord.

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And I saw this in your LinkedIn
profile, Allard, even though

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we've known each other for
years, I went back to obviously

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look at your LinkedIn profile to
find a couple of things.

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And the Africa connection, there
was something that was important

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to me because I'd been on the
board of an Irish fintech for

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six years and they just had an
exit.

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But part of their big GO that
they they have partnerships with

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and that they sell in is in
Western Africa, and there's

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always been a bit of a affinity
that I've had for that part of

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the world in terms of its
appetite for fintech.

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With your focus on European
fintech, what lessons did you

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learn out of looking at African
fintech that you think enriched

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your view of the European Space?
So I'm the only thing very

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passionate about fintech in
Africa.

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I my first connection to that
was that after I came back from

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San Francisco and we came back
to the Netherlands, I go in

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touch with a friend of mine who
lived in and we had a fund out

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of out of Kenya and they were
making an investment in this

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company called Settlement.
And they were looking for a

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board member, someone who
actually knew about startups and

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knew about fintech.
And so they ended up with me and

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I joined their board, actually
just before I joined a

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philosophy.
And then it took two years for

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them.
We, we did the Series A with,

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with Cello and then became an
investor.

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And I stayed on that board for
about 10 years or nine years.

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Also the principle of our fun
really liked Africa and the,

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and, and it got very
enthusiastic about it.

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So we made two more pretty
significant investments in

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Africa, one in Nigeria and one
in South Africa.

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Oh, Fintech, of course.
And, and so I spent about 50% of

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my time actually, you know, in
Africa Fintech over that 10 year

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period.
And I always say there's,

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there's basically 1 thesis for
Africa Fintech.

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I mean, it's made me simplifying
it.

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And that is that there is like a
billion people in Africa.

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And when we started 750 million
of them, we're not connected to

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the formal financial system.
And basically the thesis is

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let's connect the speed.
And that's a massive business

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case, but it's also, of course,
a massive impact case because

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like there's hardly anything you
can, you can better do for

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people that are not connected
that to, to connect them into

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the, to the financial system and
you're giving them access to

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payments, to loans, to all of
that.

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And the power of like fintech in
Africa is being mobile.

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It has changed everything.
There wasn't the possibility for

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basically real fintech or
financial inclusion in Africa

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before fintech was there.
The mobile phone changed

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everything and allow kind of
every person even with a very

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simple I hold Nokia phone pure
SMS based to be connected into

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the ecosystem.
And so it really told me the

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impact that finance serves to
have on people's lives.

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And that's one and how it really
can be fortunate good in the

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world.
Also bad, by the way, because

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the moment you can do this, you
get predatory lending and

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there's a balance that is
sometimes hard.

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But also, you know, the power of
that platform and the powers of

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platforms in general, like what
mobile could do for a whole

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continent is like it transformed
the way people could live there.

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So that has never been so clear
to me, as you know, has become

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incredibly clear to me because
of the experience there.

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And you see now with a new
platform being AI like that

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probably will have like a
similar kind of effect on the

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whole world as in this new
platform could change

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everything.
So the power of that became

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incredibly clear You.
Know you just hit on something

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here.
Do you think that opportunity of

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realizing that, you know when
you started that there's a huge

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opportunity for financial
services on the Internet or

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00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,160
Fintech, that looking now back
at Europe and seeing how few

228
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,640
people are connected to AI and
seeing the big opportunity for

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financial services on AI on the
Internet, Is there a parallel

230
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,360
there?
So the basics are different in

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00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,720
that way.
That's like we have specifically

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in Europe, most people are
connected one way or the other

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to Internet.
And like even much more than for

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example, in the US, most people
have bank accounts and are

235
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connected, right?
And I think that one of the

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00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,440
interesting things about AI is
that many of us will have the

237
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,280
gut feel that everything will
change and everything will be

238
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,160
different.
But it's very hard to see how

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00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,600
exactly that will happen.
And I wish I could tell you

240
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,560
differently, but if I like, I've
never been so uncertain and

241
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:39,440
unsure about the future of what
all we do as I am now.

242
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,520
And to be honest, I think
actually nobody has the answer

243
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:48,400
right to what AI will really
mean for startups, how we build

244
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,520
businesses, for financial
services in general, how we

245
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,120
build fintechs.
And I'm it's interesting.

246
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,040
I mean, we are now sourcing for
recruiting for our next cohort

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00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,360
And we see, you know, of course,
like 80% of the companies that

248
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,920
ply are building something with
AI at his core.

249
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,880
And it still feels that we're
building, we're kind of doing

250
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the same.
We're still building the same

251
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,720
things that that were very
replacing thing is like, hey, I,

252
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,320
I used to be a headphones
analyst and now I'm buying an AI

253
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,600
that can do 80% of the job I did
right.

254
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,640
There's lots of that.
While, you know, when the

255
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,600
Internet started, I nobody would
have could have first seen

256
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,800
social networks in the way they
work like, or you were in the

257
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,640
way that worked.
And I don't think we're at that

258
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,120
phase yet in fintech that you
see all these models that would

259
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,240
have been just impossible.
There were not nobody was

260
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,120
thinking of and now coming to
the fore and will be the largest

261
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,480
companies probably that will
exist in in 10 years time, you

262
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,760
know, as the Google and the and
the Facebooks and rigors of the

263
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,440
world.
And I do believe that AI has in

264
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,360
all its breath will have way
more impact.

265
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,000
Even then, for example, the
coming off the Internet itself,

266
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,200
which was already like probably
one of the largest things

267
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,760
happening in our lifestyle,
right?

268
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,040
Yeah, it's interesting because
I'm sitting here thinking, well,

269
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,800
isn't it just an engineering
problem if someone says they

270
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,680
want to use AI to build a model
on how a startup raises money

271
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240
and then put AI agents in place
to go raise that money from

272
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,600
other AI agents, right.
Or do that for a venture fund

273
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,520
itself.
Or do that for how a bank

274
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,080
controls its capital preserve
ratio, whether they're a big

275
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,800
traditional legacy incumbent
bank or they are one of the neo

276
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,360
banks.
And is there a SAS platform that

277
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:44,760
could be built around that?
All that stuff.

278
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,800
And just thinking about, well,
if we want to send a spaceship

279
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,000
to Mars, we got to build a
spaceship.

280
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,800
And we have to do that thinking
about all the eventualities of

281
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,120
what could happen.
And we're going to we're going

282
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,840
to build it, we're going to do
it and we're going to spend send

283
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,880
a spaceship to Mars.
Are you seeing any big thinking

284
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,520
like that to saying let's
completely change where we are

285
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,560
in financial services with AI?
I'm not seeing much of that yet

286
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,720
to be honest.
I think people working all

287
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,920
stuff, Yeah.
And I, I need to be very honest

288
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,920
on this, right?
I asked myself if Google would

289
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,200
have come to me in 1998, would I
have invested in it?

290
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,360
But I've just saw, you know,
another search engine.

291
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,120
I'm even unsure of that.
Like, would I recognize it if

292
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,640
someone would really work on,
like, the next real big thing?

293
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:35,520
So now we have AI agent for
everything and Fintech is hardly

294
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,760
ever on the absolute forefront
ALS innovation.

295
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,640
And the reason is that like the
smart people in the room, they

296
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,240
like they know that with
financial services, you have

297
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,600
this regulatory thing, right?
So the low hanging fruit is

298
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,760
often not building something
very complex in financial

299
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,080
courses because very soon it
will hit the regulator and the

300
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,080
regulator will just say no.
So you know, you better take

301
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,400
your super innovation to another
segment and then later on it

302
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,000
will come to Fintech.
And I'm I experienced that two

303
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,880
years ago when like it was clear
that like Gen.

304
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,839
AI would actually transform
everything in your heart.

305
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:17,280
Chetty PT came, I had come out
in November and then in the year

306
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,680
following, I had very few like
literally out of hundreds of

307
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,240
applications, like 2 Gen.
AI applications, which was half

308
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,600
a year later.
This is my hypothesis where the

309
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,920
hypothesis is that, well, it
could be like the most advanced

310
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,720
teams are not looking for an
accelerator.

311
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,640
That could be one thing.
But the second thing is that the

312
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,280
mainstream innovation, right,
they're not, you know, they're

313
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,360
people are not thinking let's do
financial services first because

314
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,080
specifically with this stuff and
I'm repeating myself, but the

315
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,160
regulation is such an important
part of it.

316
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,400
I do think that some of the most
advanced thinking I I'm not

317
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,720
seeing yet they and I also think
that often think that goes going

318
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,240
to be the second order, but that
it will come and that it will

319
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,440
change everything and that it
will change everything in ways

320
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,680
that we can't imagine.
I have no doubt about that.

321
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,840
So we thought that a bit and I
know you were there of, you know

322
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,640
of crypto web 3 blockchain like
10 years ago and then it kind of

323
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,160
never happened in the way we saw
that would happen in the speed

324
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,440
and it was harder to find like
real use cases.

325
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,760
Now that all is changing as we
speak and over the past few

326
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:32,080
years, but I think the AI
thought is a different and you

327
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,400
can see it already.
It will truly change.

328
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,120
Everything is such a structure
in such a foundational way and

329
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,360
fast.
What's turn the tide is that

330
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,960
people stop saying, hey, I'm a
blockchain business or I'm a

331
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,080
crypto business.
It's that they're going in to

332
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,720
solve a problem and that it just
happens to be the technology

333
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,000
they're using is is blockchain
and tech that's been used to

334
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,640
power crypto businesses in
general.

335
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,920
That started to get people more
interested.

336
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,720
And alongside that, there's
always just the passage of time,

337
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,800
right, and the maturity of
businesses and the maturity of

338
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,160
technology and the maturity of
those who are implementing

339
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,080
technology in businesses.
And I think with AI, I think

340
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,000
we'll see a similar trajectory.
And that, OK, it's not hey,

341
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,840
we're AI powered capital reserve
ratio.

342
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,840
It's that, hey, we're a SAS
business that makes it easier

343
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,480
for banks to automate this part
of their business.

344
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,000
It just happens to be powered by
AI.

345
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,160
And it gets to that point where
when AI is actually, you know,

346
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,560
we're a few years longer than
the tooth at that point by that

347
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,800
stage.
But on that point of kind of

348
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,200
trading ideas on things, Allard,
you know, you and I have been on

349
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,360
each other screening committees
over the years with your

350
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,440
program, with my program at
Techstars.

351
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,200
And but there's one thing that
we've never quite gotten into

352
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,400
each other's heads on, which is
that the kind of conviction that

353
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,360
you need with these early stage
founders to pull the trigger and

354
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,640
to make that investment
especially.

355
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,880
When this is in emerging tech
where the signals can just be so

356
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,720
opaque, what is it that you've
kind of leaned on in order to

357
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,880
get that conviction that you
need in terms of your past

358
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,480
experience in the tool set that
you've built up around

359
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,680
investing?
But me, we're a few years in

360
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,920
philosophy and we, I started
that business with very, very

361
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,680
experienced entrepreneur or
being extremely successful IPO

362
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,600
his oil and gas firm twice,
which is good for your, for your

363
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,000
personal balance sheet.
And we decided that he was not a

364
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,320
very experienced venture
investor.

365
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,000
And I'd been, I'm being
operator, I'd have been a

366
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,240
founder.
So I wasn't very experienced

367
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,800
investor.
So we're looking back, it's like

368
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,360
what works and what didn't work.
And it was then basically that

369
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,040
we came up with this thing
called the unstoppable founder

370
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,040
thesis.
And it was basically, if we look

371
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,400
at our portfolio and which
companies were doing well, which

372
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,080
we're not doing so well, It was
when we compromised on founder

373
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,920
quality or like with reasoning
like, OK, this founder is great

374
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,120
and we he needs some support.
Like he can't really sell.

375
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,720
He needs some support or she
needs some support there.

376
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,320
Or, you know, probably this is
not the long term CEO, but it

377
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,000
could that never works.
So the ensemble founder thesis

378
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,920
was you need to invest in people
that will build this business

379
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,200
with or without you.
They don't actually need you to

380
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,280
build their business because if
you don't give them the money or

381
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,440
to support, they'll find the
money of the sports or well, so

382
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,800
the whole idea that you're like
massively important in the lives

383
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,240
of the trying to find people
that you're massively important

384
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,920
to to become successful, like
sort of way to find the people

385
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,800
that are so driven that they
will build this business

386
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,080
whatever happens, right.
So and that became in simple

387
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,480
founder thinking that this is
not new, of course.

388
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,400
I mean it is something that
like, I'm not saying that

389
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,920
there's something you need and
this is still.

390
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,080
And this was like we were late
seat Series A And so.

391
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,480
So we have much more to look at.
Like these work adjacent

392
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,720
companies, they had revenue and
they had customers.

393
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,680
There were stuff to look at in
our case at the screening

394
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,240
communities and in our
application.

395
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,240
But there's nothing, I guess
often like 2 people and a deck

396
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,200
and then there's your
storytelling and there's their

397
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,000
passion and you know, there's an
idea.

398
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,480
But let's be honest.
I mean, at text, as we say, we

399
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,400
have fixed criteria, team, team,
team.

400
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,360
And that is market size traction
idea.

401
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,760
And this looked for nothing that
we put in that way, right?

402
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,080
Because literally the idea is
lost.

403
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,480
And I, I found that you can
change people's and like, if, if

404
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,160
the idea is not good enough
early in the program, they will

405
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,240
actually realize there's enough
mentor meetings that will tell

406
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,560
them that.
And when they meet 60 mentors

407
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,080
that they will actually realize
it.

408
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,000
You can work with that all that
they can pivot.

409
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,760
But if the founders don't have
that, that like that instable in

410
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,680
US.
And also maybe that's founder

411
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,640
market fit or final products
fit.

412
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,240
If that's not there, that can
all be fixed.

413
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:08,160
So I've doubled down on this
like, or in the early stages

414
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,560
reading logically, there's even
more on that.

415
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,080
And I think there's even not
that much more.

416
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,840
So my biggest worry always is
like to go too much on a thesis

417
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,200
for like infant.
That's what's the thesis.

418
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,840
Well, this year, you know, we
have a stable coin

419
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,280
infrastructure thesis.
I, I, if I find a amazing

420
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,240
founder that's going after the
credit space, right, which might

421
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,120
like building a balance sheet
heavy business, which might not

422
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,200
be the the hovest thing in town
at the moment.

423
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,600
We are so early, like cycles go
up and down and like credit will

424
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,560
be in vogue and out of vogue.
And but if you have an amazing

425
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,960
founder building, then they will
be able to build a big firm in

426
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,280
that segment if it where the
markets works with you or works

427
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,480
against you at that point.
So that's that's basically my

428
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,440
strongest conviction.
And when I get others, others

429
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,760
screening community like your
this try where you're trying to

430
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,400
look for now, of course, it's
hard to do in one meeting.

431
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,120
And there's, you know, just
signals that you need.

432
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,240
That's my long winded answer to
your.

433
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,720
For your question, no, it's,
it's, it's funny like last year,

434
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,880
I think it was in sometime late
summer, I started hearing the

435
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,640
word founder mode, right?
Like someone in founder mode and

436
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,640
it was last year and I forget
what I was calling it.

437
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,360
You can see that you can almost
smell it from a founder, right.

438
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,040
When they have that unstable
that that beast mode that they

439
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,640
go into and you see it and it's
funny because it can be in the

440
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,480
people that you least expect
that are prim and proper, always

441
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,600
kind of like one at the top
level, very sophisticated.

442
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,240
But like when you break it down,
they're just hungry animals and

443
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,600
they'll just go for it.
When you take that approach

444
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,640
Allard and to be founder 1st and
founder focused as we all have

445
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,600
to be in tech stars, obviously,
and as anyone in early stage

446
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,720
investing and precede investing
needs to be that.

447
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,360
How does that all wrap in then
to the program you're running

448
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:14,480
with ABN Amro to kind of curate
that unstoppable founder thesis

449
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,840
and turn that into real results
during the course of a three

450
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,000
month program?
Or so my biggest learning has

451
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,720
been as an investor and I kind
of got into investing.

452
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,720
No, he's moving because I've
been a founder.

453
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,600
But the as an investor needs to
be super humble.

454
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,320
I mean, if you've been an
operator and ACEO and you've

455
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,920
been used to kind of being the
balls you're used to I knowing

456
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,320
what needs to happen and then
tell people what needs to happen

457
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,680
and then like they'll make it
happen and then think good

458
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,200
things happen all right or bad
things happen.

459
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,160
But it's that's what you do.
So in investing, you need to be

460
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240
super humble.
You need to assume you are not

461
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,000
right.
The founders are living this

462
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,080
their whole life and they are
going to pick the one to the

463
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,920
right.
So running an accelerator as

464
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,280
well.
We don't do a cookie cutter

465
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,360
program.
Every single company that comes

466
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,880
to us, every set of founders
that come to us, have a very,

467
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,520
very different way what it means
for them to accelerate.

468
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,080
I don't have one single answer
for them.

469
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,760
I actually don't have the
answers for them.

470
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,920
What we do is we try to put
founders in the position to be

471
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:27,080
the best possible selves and
present them with a big banquet

472
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,760
of options they can go after,
which is a banker that they

473
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,160
probably could get like it's
very harsh for them to get

474
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,920
anywhere else.
That's the real value, right?

475
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,680
You, you present them to meet a
whole bunch of people that are

476
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,640
incredibly relevant to them and
their business.

477
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,440
We have that base of mentors
because we have a feeder program

478
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,560
and we've been doing this for a
while and people love to hang

479
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,080
out with founders.
And, and these are people that

480
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,920
like we can guarantee that every
company that comes into our into

481
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,480
our accelerator meets four to
seven people that will be

482
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,520
transformative to their business
and, and is really and are

483
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,600
willing to work with them.
And how do we know this?

484
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,280
This is just experience over the
years that always happens.

485
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,000
And then we have like Amy and
Emerald bank or actually turn

486
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,120
out to be super open to really
experiment and pilot and work

487
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,720
with these farmers.
Not all of them need to do a

488
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,440
deal with a bank like Amy and
Emerald, right?

489
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:22,800
It gives you a good portion of
them.

490
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,680
And of course, we also select
for that is like, hey, that

491
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,600
could be such a great match.
And if that deal happens, it's

492
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,240
incredibly transformative for
the start and very valuable for

493
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,800
AB number as well.
So that actually is, is a path

494
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,200
that we that we provide.
But the most important thing

495
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,920
coming back to what we said is
that never believe that you have

496
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,080
the answer for company.
Never believe that they will go

497
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,080
through like our started program
and then good things happen.

498
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080
No, Every company goes through
their own program.

499
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,320
Tech's already been doing this
for a long time.

500
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,000
So there is a way to kind of
make this super relevant for any

501
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,680
company that gets into the
program.

502
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,560
And then it is for us.
And this is also where my

503
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,880
journey let me in, which I think
is, by the way, the most

504
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,320
interesting thing about my job
now is how do you make this I,

505
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,000
constable founder the best
possible version of him or

506
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,200
herself, right?
So that they can really shine.

507
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,560
Now, how can you take away
barriers and propose options and

508
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,240
this all without like and trying
as hard as you can not to tell

509
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,720
them what to actually do?
That's often not a very winning

510
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,520
study.
Now that not doesn't always

511
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:35,600
work.
And of course, because you've

512
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,360
got so much experience behind
you, you, you, sometimes you,

513
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,840
you know, you do provide for
some answers hopefully.

514
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,720
And, and, but the biggest thing
is put them in their power

515
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,960
because the power is in them
already.

516
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,560
That's why they're in the
program.

517
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,160
And it's just like how to take
away the barriers and turbo

518
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,040
charge them with connections.
And how do you, in terms of

519
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,840
helping them find their way, how
do you restrain yourself from

520
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,040
giving outright guidance and
advice versus enabling them to

521
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,800
find their path?
Yeah, So, and this is, it is a

522
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,120
very interesting question
because I never get that totally

523
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,600
right.
It's it's hard to get right.

524
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,440
Like there is I, I, at one point
I, I trained to be coach.

525
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,680
And so a coach asks questions
and as a coach, you are actually

526
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:30,000
not allowed to give answers,
which in the end, if you've been

527
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,240
in the industry for say, 30
years and you've done all this

528
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,160
is also not fair.
So that's why a mentor is a

529
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,080
little bit different.
A mentor asks a whole bunch of

530
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,800
questions, but in the end is
allowed to actually also share.

531
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,680
So the insight that might look
like an answer.

532
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,480
So I tried to do that, I tried
to 1st ask a whole bunch of

533
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,120
questions and let them come with
to their own solutions.

534
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200
And then at some point you add
your experience to it and help

535
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,880
them form their own mind.
But the technique of actually

536
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,360
helping them to formulate the
answers to the challenges they

537
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:11,080
have by bringing in like some of
the high contacts maybe and

538
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,200
experiences you have that I
think that is where where the

539
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,760
magic happens.
If you can do that now.

540
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
So this all goes out of the way
where you just like keep on

541
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,640
giving answers because you're
holding them wrong.

542
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,560
And when you only ask questions,
you also, I think many of the

543
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,880
founders really would also like
to to hear some of the answers,

544
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,880
right?
They're like, you know it.

545
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,720
Why did you tell me?
Oh yeah, someone, I had someone

546
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
do that to me recently.
We're having a chat and it was a

547
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,040
problem that I had a decision I
was facing and was talking to a

548
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,240
friend who's a coach and he was
doing a coaching session and

549
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,960
doing all questions.
And then halfway through he's

550
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,240
like, Pete, time out, right?
We got to end this coaching

551
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,760
session.
What you're talking to me about

552
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,520
right now, clearly the second
thing you're talking about, I

553
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,400
see your face light up when
you're talking about that.

554
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200
So do that, right?
So that he jumped right out of

555
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,800
coaching mode and right into
directive mentor mode, which was

556
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,120
pretty cool.
So yeah, sometimes you do have

557
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,360
to do that when you see it
happening, you know.

558
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,800
But I think it's that process of
leading them to that point that

559
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,520
gives them the conviction to
then all you do, you're not

560
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,080
telling them what to do, you're
just pushing them over the edge,

561
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,640
right?
I know that from your leadership

562
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,720
in meditation that gives you a
great view into kind of

563
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,360
sometimes maybe, I don't know,
you tell me, does that give you

564
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,960
a great view into the mental
nature of founders and perhaps

565
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,640
to look for those things that
you can help push them a little

566
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,880
bit over the edge sometimes?
Yeah, in a way.

567
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,960
So yeah, I, I, I started this
journey all mindfulness

568
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,760
meditation.
Actually it's sort of as many

569
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,760
with yoga and that very power
yoga.

570
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,880
I go yoga and then slowly and
you get kind of, you start to

571
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,680
get the essence of that all a
little bit.

572
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,400
And I did a yoga teacher
training at some point in the

573
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,880
sabbatical.
And this was right after we came

574
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,200
out of the US.
We, when I got on the board of

575
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,120
Secho, we took the family for a
year on Bali and I'm game at

576
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,400
yoga.
You get a lot of meditation with

577
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,720
that.
And I started to feel the power

578
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,680
of that meditation practice to
actually go inward and find

579
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,160
silence and stop kind of
thinking about the past in the

580
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,560
future and trying to be in the
present and what it does to you.

581
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,400
If you if you keep up that
practice and you become you

582
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,040
create like awareness of what's
here and now.

583
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,520
Another awareness allows you
also to not to be in better

584
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,720
control of your, of your
responses.

585
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:39,800
The weird thing is people
meditate.

586
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,080
You tried to get some depth and
silence and I thought some

587
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,000
thoughts and thoughts and people
thought there's not a great

588
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,480
meditation session because
always thinking, but, but many

589
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,200
people don't realize is that
it's actually the practice of

590
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,720
getting to into souls and then
recognizing that you're back

591
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,720
into a fantasy world of the past
and future.

592
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,560
And then bringing back and then
going back and going back to the

593
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:02,920
breath, for example, going back
homework.

594
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,200
And that trains this muscle and
that's the awareness muscle,

595
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,480
which at some point in your life
starts to it.

596
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,040
It starts you start to realize
that, for example, hey, you

597
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,560
always didn't because of
something, you know, you kind of

598
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,800
irritate you, you get grumpy,
right?

599
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,920
And then I could be grumpy for
an hour for not really in great

600
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,960
meeting.
I wasn't really lashing out to

601
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,160
people, but like, or I'm grumpy
and you're grumpy to your family

602
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,080
a little bit and nobody knows.
And like the awareness created

603
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,520
for meditation.
Now you still get grumpy, but

604
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,040
then after like half a minute
you're like, oh, I'm grumpy and

605
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,840
you can snap out.
So that and I think so that the

606
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,320
more you practice mindfulness
practice like meditation be

607
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,280
maybe the primary one, the more
you train that muscle of

608
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,240
awareness and that starts to
roll into also recognizing

609
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,600
things and other people.
I noticed I'm I'm more able to

610
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,160
be in the present with what is
really here now I'm not only

611
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,320
thinking about what I'm going to
react to and on all that,

612
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,080
because now I get catch myself
easier going.

613
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,600
I'm actually not thinking about
when I want to answer.

614
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,520
I'm not really listening.
So trying to do that, which

615
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,920
makes you more receptive to what
people are actually saying and

616
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,719
actually really hearing what
people are saying and being able

617
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,080
to be there with them when you
know, kind of they tell you

618
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,520
something.
And I think that has a had a lot

619
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,520
of significant effect of how I
lead and also how people

620
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,639
perceive in that.
Like people feel it and you're

621
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,840
they feel it when you're really
there and when you're really

622
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,280
listening and, or when you're
like actually with your thoughts

623
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,639
halfway somewhere else or trying
to think of what you're going to

624
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,560
say or all that.
So yeah, I do think that has

625
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:52,159
been very, very useful, probably
my most useful life skill and

626
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:55,560
much useful training over the
past say 20 years.

627
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,000
And also in the warm to be very
old, which most excites me to

628
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,760
deepen.
Like I feel that there's so much

629
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,280
more to find there.
It feels very productive because

630
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,240
the effects of the training
actually they come out in the

631
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,040
real world, your relationships
with your family and your and

632
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,040
your, your friends and the
people you work now also there's

633
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,640
it's often like 2 tips forward,
one step back, you know, 2 steps

634
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,520
back.
It's all the same.

635
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,920
Like there is never like this.
It's very known.

636
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,640
Perfect.
I know where you're going and

637
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,240
I've been doing meditation now
for the last few years, but very

638
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,040
lightly and just discipline that
I have to try to do it most days

639
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:39,800
and that bring you back and
focusing on the present and the

640
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,560
little techniques and I do it
all through the headphone stuff.

641
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,800
That discipline that you get
through meditation of bringing

642
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,720
yourself back to focus on the
present.

643
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,320
And you've just taught me this
now, Allard, So thank you.

644
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,240
It's transferable to how you're
speaking with founders and how

645
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:01,120
you're trying to help them
because you will notice things

646
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:06,040
that cause them to tune out a
bit if you start going in a

647
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,840
certain direction.
But you want them tuned in, You

648
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,000
want them focused.
So it's bringing yourself back

649
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,080
off of whatever path you're
going down with your guidance

650
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,160
with whatever and bringing it
back to focus on the founder and

651
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,120
to ensure you've got that buy
in, you've got that purchase

652
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,760
really that that traction with
the founders mindset between

653
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,680
your mindset and their mindset.
And that is deep.

654
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,720
And you can only get that really
through meditation.

655
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,360
I think.
So that I think that's the

656
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,920
advice to other investors out
there is practice meditation.

657
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,000
Well, I, I think it's and it's
and it's, it's easier said than

658
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,480
done.
So for everyone who wants to

659
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,960
start meditating, my tip is do
it early in the morning.

660
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,800
Like take 15 minutes before you
would normally get up because

661
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,720
that's the only like you
normally get up 7 get up at 6:45

662
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,400
because that is the time that
you actually have the moment you

663
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,680
go like, Hey, I'm going to do it
like after breakfast or off of

664
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,480
this or off of that or during
the day becomes very hard

665
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,080
because to, to keep it up.
Now, one of the things, as with

666
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,920
everything, is the consistency
of your practice.

667
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,840
It really, really helps.
So every day a little bit is the

668
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,160
way to do it.
So I and I take that into our

669
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,280
accelerator.
So we do some mindfulness

670
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,640
training for those who want it.
And then three times a week I

671
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:27,880
meditate with them in the
morning.

672
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,400
Very early on, just after my own
practice, I open a Zoom call and

673
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,760
we practice for about 10 minutes
and we do like 7 minutes of

674
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,800
meditation and three minutes
where I share a song, a little

675
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,440
bit of wisdom and then ready for
the day, even if it's for a few

676
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:47,800
minutes like ground and find the
size inside yourself and not let

677
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,880
your mind kind of walk away with
you.

678
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,640
Is is extremely valuable.
It is.

679
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440
It is.
It's good discipline and being

680
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,280
able to recognize these
unstoppable founders and being

681
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,560
able to have these mental
approaches yourself to be able

682
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,640
to see those things and to help
guide them once they're in and

683
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,440
help them.
It help empower them to find

684
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,080
their own path like we've been
talking about that they're still

685
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,000
going to be regardless of how
founder focused we are, they're

686
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,840
still going to be verticals.
There's still going to be things

687
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,800
interesting in fintech that are
happening that you think are

688
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,760
going to be important to where
these founders then go over the

689
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,880
course of the next 12 to 18 to
24 months.

690
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,280
And even on, you know, beyond
that are the things that you're

691
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,600
pointing to right now that you
think are very interesting in

692
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,200
fintech that you think are going
to be important for founders to

693
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,880
embrace in terms of, you know,
some of these blurred lines

694
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,240
between different verticals
right now?

695
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120
So it is and you said the
blurred lines with the vertical.

696
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,480
I mean that's really a good way.
So, so Fintech, the interesting

697
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,200
with Fintech is if you get
payments like the market cap of

698
00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:01,400
the of payments is global GDP,
like digital payment, it's the

699
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,360
biggest market in the world is
that for payments lending is

700
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,120
probably 50% of GDP, right is
driven by loans going somewhere.

701
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:16,120
So and those things were kind of
they were like mobilized by

702
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,360
financial institutions.
But what we see of course more

703
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,040
and more is that every company
can be a fintech.

704
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,640
If you have a marketplace, then
you embed the lending into that

705
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,920
and you have, you know, payments
capability into that.

706
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,480
So slowly, I think that's one of
the interesting things that

707
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,760
we've seen over the past like
say five years, is that every

708
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,320
company becoming a Fintech is
one of the big things by

709
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,560
embedding finance into
everything, which is and all the

710
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,920
founders that we're talking to
right now, they're like hardly

711
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,200
anyone that's still trying to
build something super generic,

712
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,960
right?
That's removed only fintech from

713
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,960
that.
So that's like everything

714
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,440
becoming the fintech.
And this is such an open door,

715
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,480
but like if you're not thinking
about how AI will will change

716
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,760
your business role and I'm there
with them, right.

717
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,760
We don't know yet.
But if that is not like at the

718
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,800
core of your thinking going
forward, yeah, you're probably

719
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,160
going to be in make trouble very
soon.

720
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,800
Now I'm also working with all
founders in and I know you do as

721
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,240
well, Pete, is that like in the
earlier stage?

722
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,480
This is a super, super hard
journey and people think it will

723
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,240
get easier if they get into this
very difficult first phase, but

724
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:24,720
it actually doesn't like the
largest company larger the

725
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:26,520
problem.
So and.

726
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,320
Trying to keep mentally sane and
stable in actually going after

727
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,520
that journey.
I think it's also something that

728
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,000
we in our programs really,
really work on with the founders

729
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,120
like build the also the mental
resilience and the stability to

730
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,440
be able to keep up with the fact
this very difficult and tough

731
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,200
journey of them.
Totally.

732
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,160
I was talking to an investor the
other day who was had the good

733
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:58,040
grounding in fintech, but lacked
any appreciation of going even

734
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,800
further than that into purely
natively digital, right in that

735
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,640
where you're looking at on chain
finance.

736
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,880
And I talked to him about
stablecoins, just as an example,

737
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,520
and tried to keep it simple and
use some of the Chris Dixon

738
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,560
language, which is, you know,
digital payments without

739
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,280
gatekeepers or digital payments
without intermediaries.

740
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,520
And he viewed the whole market
as being, well, you can use a

741
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,800
stable coin to do a payment, or
you can use crypto, these

742
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,560
Bitcoin, Ethereum to do a
payment.

743
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,200
He's like that.
That's it, right, Pete?

744
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,960
I said, no, you are looking at
the entire market for payments

745
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,440
here.
And that kind of was the eye

746
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,200
opener for him that really said,
oh, listen, can you tell me more

747
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,920
about this?
Has that entered into the

748
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,280
lexicon of everyday type of
conversations that you're

749
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,840
hearing about this space from
your vantage point?

750
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,640
The tough part with that also in
fintech is that people have been

751
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,280
saying it for now 12 years and
it hasn't happened.

752
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,480
And now it's really happening
and probably a lot of people

753
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,840
when we'll catch on in time,
right?

754
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:08,960
Yeah.
And one of the reasons for that,

755
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,520
of course, has been in the like
in the developed nations, I

756
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,640
mean, brackets, we just don't
have a massive payment problem

757
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,520
specifically now we have Apple
Pay, right?

758
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,960
That works really, really well.
If you are a consumer like I

759
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,960
can, every country has its own
way really easily by

760
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,760
transferring money.
And I can allow you have things

761
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,840
like tiki, which everybody uses
and or you have ideal.

762
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,520
And there's all these like
payments have become really

763
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,360
simple.
And if you're in a country like

764
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,560
the Netherlands, like for
consumers is free, like you

765
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,320
never have any friction.
So, and even with mobile

766
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,520
payments, like I remember in the
first years of me being a VC and

767
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,800
fintech, everybody wanted to
show me their mobile payment,

768
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,320
But I've got the best app from
all the payments.

769
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,840
And somewhere just kept saying,
listen, you come to me with 5000

770
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,240
merchants and 20,000 users and
show them that they have repeat

771
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:07,720
usage and we'll talk because I
don't really need to, don't need

772
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:09,560
to see your app.
And nobody made it.

773
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,040
Of course, it was Apple Pay in
the end that kind of that broke

774
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,160
the mobile payment thing.
And and one of the reasons is

775
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,280
that like to have an improvement
in payment that needs to be so

776
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,920
much better, not Apple payables,
right?

777
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,880
You just do to click with your
phone and kind of that that

778
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,400
broke that.
So that has been the difficult

779
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,960
part about like really
revolutionary payments and

780
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,680
bringing them home change is
that the promise is not hard

781
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,840
enough.
And then on the other hand, the,

782
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,680
the scalability of the, the
protocols was small, big enough,

783
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,720
right or reliable enough to
actually get all that massive

784
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,640
volume on chain.
Now those things are, are

785
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,560
changing right now and stable
coins are of course a big driver

786
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,920
of it.
And I think we've just scratched

787
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,640
the surface.
And I and I I feel that it might

788
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,760
not be even impactful for, for
specifically called Jordan.

789
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:02,760
That is what all happened in the
back end.

790
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,760
And then in the end, like
consumers don't even know that

791
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,720
they're actually paying some
change stable coin reels, right?

792
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,960
Because like, because you were
in in non emerging markets or

793
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,360
are not really interested in
finding new ways to pay and

794
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,080
they're OK with the ways to pay
as long as it's deep and it's

795
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,280
financed and it's going.
So it will be an infrastructure

796
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,240
play that that will, you know,
at some point and will take time

797
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,120
because this is regulated, this
is finance, this is tough, this

798
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,040
is very complex.
It will change the whole

799
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200
infrastructure of of payments.
It can't be any other way

800
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,920
because it's so, so archaic the
way we we actually do Payless at

801
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,200
the moment, specifically called
border, which is of course the

802
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,080
first one to go, but also in, in
a more local national ecosystem.

803
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,720
Yeah.
I mean, stable coins are, I see

804
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:53,600
it is kind of the great unlock
and that's something that, like

805
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,880
you said, you know, it's
something simple and

806
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,160
straightforward from a consumer
perspective.

807
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,200
A lot of folks won't need to use
it, but a lot of folks do.

808
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,520
And that the emerging market
thesis around stablecoins is

809
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,960
very strong.
Stripe, for example, with their

810
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,080
bridge acquisition now opening
up stable coin payments in 120

811
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,840
countries where it's just easier
to send remittances using

812
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,800
stablecoins than it is going
through all these different

813
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,280
hoops in the legacy
infrastructure.

814
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,560
But where I see this great
unlock is that, you know, what

815
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,640
it can then interact with and
what it can then interact with

816
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,320
is digital securities or
tokenized assets.

817
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,480
And those tokenized assets then
not being tokenized just for the

818
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,080
sake of tokenizing an asset and
putting it on chain, but then

819
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,000
actually allowing it to be
reused for different things.

820
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,160
So being able to reuse a
tokenized money market fund for

821
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,000
collateral on an, you know, on a
derivatives exchange.

822
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,440
And so I, it's almost like, you
know, Stripe starting to unlock

823
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,200
digital payments by doing 8
lines of code, something very

824
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,760
simple.
Now, Allard, you've been in this

825
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,600
ecosystem for over 15 years.
For longer than that, when you

826
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,240
include your startup experience,
you know, and your time as a

827
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:04,200
founder, what is the most
important yet non obvious lesson

828
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,000
that you've learned over the
years?

829
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,560
Well, it needs basically two
things.

830
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:14,080
Won't timing anything is like
almost close and impossible.

831
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,040
A timing is one of the most it
is actually possible to kind of

832
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,320
have a look into the future and
have some insights on it that

833
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,280
could come true.
But then also timing them is one

834
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,320
of the furthest things in
investing.

835
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:34,640
And I have totally lost my trust
in myself being anything good at

836
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,880
timing right.
But the interesting thing is

837
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,360
with building Zeco, which was
basically Robin Hood, right?

838
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,000
Same visible.
I've been wrong twice.

839
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,080
One, I build a company that
didn't become Robin Hood, right?

840
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,200
We sold the thrill of money, but
it was not Robin Hood, which was

841
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,960
the plan.
And then I spent five years of

842
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,120
my life telling everyone that
wanted to hear the Robin Hood

843
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,160
would never work because I tried
it and it turned out again,

844
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,200
timing was everything, platform
was anything.

845
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,720
So I see that's everywhere.
It's the same with the crypto

846
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:06,800
web free space.
People have been saying it for

847
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,160
10 years and then everybody lost
conviction that it would

848
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,480
actually many people conviction
would ever happen.

849
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,640
And now all of a sudden, like we
see it really happening and some

850
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,920
people never lost the faith, but
I think almost everyone was off

851
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,080
on timing.
And the other one and I, I, we

852
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,640
spoke about it too much and
mainly already.

853
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,680
But the one thing is that like
you could have all the great

854
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,440
stories about business models
about like anything, but there

855
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,920
is nothing that can replace a
founder with a passion that is

856
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:38,960
in the end, that's what it's all
about.

857
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,000
And it's very easy for us in the
very early stages to say so.

858
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:47,160
But to be honest, still in
Series A for investing, it's the

859
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,440
founders with with that and stop
calling us that, that actually

860
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,720
will create the winners.
And I think many people that

861
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,760
have been invested for, for for
some time notice, but it feels

862
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,800
very anti intuitive.
I have people that like friends

863
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,680
of mine that made little money
building great businesses and

864
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,240
then they become an Angel
investor and they invested

865
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,360
people with great ideas.
And then they're like, well, the

866
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,760
founder, it made me not the best
founder, but I've been an

867
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,520
operator.
I can fix that.

868
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,160
Oh no.
I'm.

869
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,840
There to help because now I need
and that never works right so

870
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,000
for to really realize it's
really all about these people

871
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,840
that do it.
That's really what you need to

872
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,320
and then your whole model needs
to be how to support these

873
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,440
people, right?
The people like the the no, you

874
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,560
don't have to really support the
business that much.

875
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,600
You have to support the people
what they need.

876
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,560
There might be business needs,
of course, but that's so that's

877
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,840
maybe maybe the two things that.
I love it, I love it.

878
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,760
Perfect place to round this out
and I round out each interview

879
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,560
with that I do Allard with this
final question that I ask of

880
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,240
everyone.
What is one thing that people

881
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:50,880
would not expect to know about
you?

882
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,520
I actually, when I don't do
texarns, I really love to go and

883
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,840
warm silent retreats, meditation
retreats.

884
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,960
And last year I did a month on a
retreat.

885
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:05,080
You know, that kind of so
intrigues me.

886
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,240
What happens then?
Yeah, if you would find my

887
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:13,040
passion at the moment is to in
more and more on this adventure

888
00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:16,920
of, you know, of finding what's
there if you if you really allow

889
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,440
the the silence and the present
to be there.

890
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,640
So that might be not so obvious
if you read my LinkedIn.

891
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,760
Yeah, but listen, you know,
we've been given two years and

892
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,880
one mouth for a reason, right?
And that that is why and and

893
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,840
Allard, this is, you know, true
to this day when I have some of

894
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,840
the most difficult problems with
a big decision that needs to be

895
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,680
made.
That's why I give you a ring,

896
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,080
right?
And that you're excellent at

897
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:45,880
listening and helping people to
find their way.

898
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,200
So thank you.
Thank you, Pete.

899
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,960
I will leave it there and thank
you for this chat and I look

900
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,120
forward to our next one.
Very good.

901
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:00,920
Thanks, Pete.
That does it for this week folks

902
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,360
and thanks to Allard for opening
up his mind to help us figure

903
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,520
out why he does what he does.
If you like what you heard,

904
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,000
please leave us a rating and or
review on Spotify, Apple or on

905
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,440
Money Never Sleeps dot IE slash
rate.

906
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,080
Thanks to Conan Brophy from
create sound for mixing and

907
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,880
editing this episode.
Conan is an excellent media man

908
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,160
I work with on your own podcast.
As for me, I'm an early stage

909
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,800
startup investor in the next
version of the Internet and I

910
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,560
lead the Techstars Web 3
accelerator.

911
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,120
There are plenty of links in the
show notes on money never sleeps

912
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,880
that IE on how to get in touch.
So don't hesitate to reach out.

913
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,480
Finally, till next time, thanks
for listening.

914
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,040
See ya, money.
Never sleeps well.