Sell More or Don't Bother - The Hard Truth of Tokenization | Alejandro Gutierrez | Solana Superteam Ireland [EP. 312]

00:00:00] Pete Townsend: Tokenization, unless you're able to sell more of the asset, you're tokenizing, it's just not worth it.

[00:00:07] Alejandro Gutierrez: agree.

[00:00:08] Alejandro Gutierrez: It's going to be irrelevant. Like a CEO's realistic. They do not actually implement technologies because they're more efficient or they're going to cut costs, right?

[00:00:19] Alejandro Gutierrez: They implement this technology because they're going to be able to just increase revenue dramatically.

[00:00:24] Pete Townsend: This is Money Never Sleeps. Sharp riffs, big ideas and real insights from smart people. I'm Pete Townsend. Let's go. 

 [00:00:36] Pete Townsend: So my guest today is Alejandro Gutierrez, leader of Solana Superteam Ireland. He's now making his 12th appearance on the show. Welcome back to Money Never Sleeps, Alejandro.

[00:00:46] Alejandro Gutierrez: Thank you very much, Pete. I'm really glad and happy to be here as always.

[00:00:50] Pete Townsend: Your last episode was our 2026 predictions episode, and you said that 2026 is the year that crypto becomes boring.

[00:00:59] Pete Townsend: Is [00:01:00] Is it?  

[00:01:00] Alejandro Gutierrez: It hasn't been that boring, from the news perspective, but I think it is getting boring from the adoption from bigger players. We have been learning out of the news from the last few weeks on exploits, et cetera, is like, clearly we need some better practices.

[00:01:22] Pete Townsend: We had the Drift hack, we had Kelp DAO and that resulted in 10 billion drop in total value locked out of Aave and I'm just looking at this stuff, thinking two G words: guardrails, and governance. And when I say governance, I don't mean governance tokens, I mean governance at the corporate level.

[00:01:44] Pete Townsend: These things won't refer to themselves as companies, as corporations, but there's tons of things that we've all done throughout our careers on how to run a business. And I think that we need a good injection of a lot of those ideals into some of these bigger players.

[00:01:59] Alejandro Gutierrez: They're big [00:02:00] enough, right? And reality is we need to learn what TradFi does well. And I think TradFi does well, governance and guardrails.

[00:02:08] Alejandro Gutierrez: Like you will never have a institutional player managing probably a quarter of that amount of money with the operational security framework or the governance that either Kelp or Drift had, and that's reality, right?

[00:02:29] Pete Townsend: It is, you're not gonna have it. Maybe if they brought in a good independent non-executive director, they might get that. We'll see.

[00:02:37] Pete Townsend: We'll see. Right. So, listen, guardrails and governance can seem certainly boring but let's look at the not so boring given where you were last week. You were on a panel at KPMG with the Central Bank of Ireland, Invesco, Dillon Eustace the law firm, serious institutional names, will you set the scene for me. [00:03:00] What was the conversation about before things got really interesting for you?

[00:03:03] Alejandro Gutierrez: it was a really strong panel,

[00:03:05] Alejandro Gutierrez: people that sit pretty close to the core on how Ireland and European financial markets actually work, which is great to see.

[00:03:13] Alejandro Gutierrez: Like it was a packed room was I think more than a hundred people in there. So as you would expect, like the first part was always about like the conversation of like a defining what organization is talking about efficiencies, market infrastructure.

[00:03:27] Alejandro Gutierrez: But it was fairly refreshing, that conversation moves from less friction, more to efficiencies into a commercial reality.

[00:03:37] Pete Townsend: Yep.

[00:03:38] Alejandro Gutierrez: And I thought I was going to be the only one in the panel just with that.

[00:03:40] Alejandro Gutierrez: But it was great because John Burrowe s

[00:03:43] Alejandro Gutierrez: had the same, the same mindset. It was awesome to see.

[00:03:47] Alejandro Gutierrez: It was quite refreshing actually, seeing the position not just from the big players but also from Central Bank of Ireland.

[00:03:55] Alejandro Gutierrez: I was pretty surprised actually.

[00:03:57] Alejandro Gutierrez: So I believe that's clearly [00:04:00] a shift, and people starting seeing tokenization becoming a real player in this space and this technology as the future of the infrastructure.

[00:04:10] Pete Townsend: When you say the commercial reality of it, is there something that you said that you think cut through all the noise?

[00:04:16] Alejandro Gutierrez: I don't think people have been seeing the potential is technology from the commercial side.

[00:04:22] Alejandro Gutierrez: I think there was still this cultural mindset that tokenization is only there to provide efficiencies and transparency, et cetera.

[00:04:32] Alejandro Gutierrez: But the reality is when you're starting explaining people that you can have more programmable features embedded at the infrastructure layers on the case is more efficient. You can onboard people in a easier manner and at the end of the day, expanding right. The amount of people that will be able to use these products, then they are kind of like

[00:04:56] Pete Townsend: The light bulb moment.

[00:04:57] Alejandro Gutierrez: Exactly.

[00:04:59] Pete Townsend: [00:05:00] Tokenization, unless you're able to sell more of the asset, you're tokenizing, it's just not worth it.

[00:05:07] Alejandro Gutierrez: agree.

[00:05:07] Alejandro Gutierrez: It's going to be irrelevant. Like a CEO's realistic. They do not actually implement technologies because they're more efficient or they're going to cut costs, right?

[00:05:18] Alejandro Gutierrez: They implement this technology because they're going to be able to just increase revenue dramatically.

[00:05:23] Pete Townsend: What I get excited about is looking at it from a my portfolio companies and the corporates that I'm friendly with, where you get into conversations about, okay, let's segment the market. Let's look at this tokenized asset and how will it help you to sell more of the underlying asset?

[00:05:40] Pete Townsend: And how do you actually approach each one of these markets? What are the things you need to think about from a regulatory perspective, but also just from a user preference perspective? And you start to see how this opportunity lines up. And then also the reusability of the asset.

[00:05:55] Pete Townsend: Alejandro, you've built a lot of this stuff. Defactor, [00:06:00] the Consol Freight supply chain financing. What got unlocked commercially that wasn't possible before tokenization?

[00:06:08] Alejandro Gutierrez: First of all, we were extremely early.

[00:06:09] Alejandro Gutierrez: supply chain finance is extremely limited to bigger players. Why? Because they are the ones who need, who realistically do not need capital, but they can just find cheaper capital outside. So instead of using their own capital, they can just use capital for a lower percentage and that's the way it works.

[00:06:29] Alejandro Gutierrez: However, you have the SMEs that are the ones that realistically they need the capital, right? But it's extremely difficult to just, get it.

[00:06:40] Alejandro Gutierrez: What tokenization allowed suddenly right, is matching the need for yield, right? And. From investors, right? That is they're out there everywhere with these people that are real need for this liquidity [00:07:00] without increasing the risk, right? And that's what tokenization can do. Like for example, for a Colombian SME at the moment, to just get capital from someone in London is extremely difficult.

[00:07:14] Alejandro Gutierrez: You'll be able actually to just ease barriers of entries with tokenization for people from around the world to be able to just access this need of capital that they have,

[00:07:23] Pete Townsend: I get that. And that point about matching up the yield with the liquidity and doing that in a simpler way that really points to the global formation of capital that this whole space enables.

[00:07:37] Alejandro Gutierrez: Correct.

[00:07:38] Pete Townsend: And I like to think about how might we be able to with, say a regional asset manager, tap into global liquidity for building their fund.

[00:07:48] Alejandro Gutierrez: Like the ease of onboarding as well. Right? It's a really tricky process. The onboarding for liquidity providers, you're going to be able just to do that way faster. I [00:08:00] dream doing all these onboarding processes in three clicks at some point, right? Not

[00:08:06] Pete Townsend: Oh yeah.

[00:08:06] Alejandro Gutierrez: think we're working on it.

[00:08:07] Pete Townsend: But listen, bringing it back to Ireland, Alejandro, you've got the ability here to convene people across government, corporate startups, universities, with the activities that you're involved with. Do you think that Ireland has what it needs for tokenization to actually move product, to move Irish product? Or are we still mostly talking?

[00:08:28] Alejandro Gutierrez: So look I think we have all the ingredients. That's a reality. We have a really strong funds industry, so one of the strongest in Europe and probably around the world.

[00:08:38] Alejandro Gutierrez: We have huge payments industry as well. We have credible regulatory environment framework. We have the legal expertise, we have the services.

[00:08:50] Alejandro Gutierrez: Like this is a serious base. We have the whole platform that is needed for this thing. And on top of that, we have somehow a growing incredible innovation

[00:08:59] Alejandro Gutierrez: ecosystem as [00:09:00] well, right?

[00:09:00] Alejandro Gutierrez: But I think it is really important actually to just reiterate on how strong the talent is in this country.

[00:09:07] Alejandro Gutierrez: I think what we don't have yet is that coordination, that execution around tokenization, and understanding the big commercial opportunity that's, that can bring to Ireland.

[00:09:20] Alejandro Gutierrez: I think we're still a bit too comfortable discussing the subject and doing papers and all these things.

[00:09:25] Alejandro Gutierrez: We're way beyond the POC. Like that's long gone, right? Like when you have all the bigger players already having products, right?

[00:09:34] Alejandro Gutierrez: That are live and people are investing in them, right? Like BENJI, like Citibank, like Invesco partnership with Superstate, all these things, right? Like it tells you like, okay guys, like that POC phase is long gone, so now it's actually time to move and execute.

[00:09:54] Alejandro Gutierrez: Because either Ireland is going to start moving product quick or we're going to [00:10:00] just be left behind by some other jurisdictions. Right? And we know in Europe what's the other jurisdiction that is going to be taking a big bulk

[00:10:08] Alejandro Gutierrez: of, the, the business.

[00:10:09] Alejandro Gutierrez: The good thing is suddenly I, for the first time I'm seeing every single one of the different actors in the space I wouldn't say concerned, but it's more alert.

[00:10:21] Alejandro Gutierrez: And have learned that, hey,

[00:10:23] Alejandro Gutierrez: this needs to happen.

[00:10:24] Alejandro Gutierrez: And this is coming from the regulator, from the government,

[00:10:27] Alejandro Gutierrez: from the asset allocators from the lawyers and everybody. So I think finally there's something there, right?

[00:10:36] Pete Townsend: it is. Looking at the tone of the Central Bank of Ireland, I don't think any regulator around the world is ever in a position to beg for anything. And I don't know how you say that a regulator begs for something, but the tone seems to be like, bring me your finest meats and cheeses, please.

[00:10:53] Pete Townsend: We will do this and that the form of settlement. The form of transactions. [00:11:00] That never really distinguished between an old way and a new way. It's, is there an operating model? Are there risk controls? Is there governance around this?

[00:11:10] Pete Townsend: What are the guardrails? How does it all work? And being able to say that with confidence and credibility to your regulator that this is how things work. That's critically important.

[00:11:21] Pete Townsend: We just need one of these big players to, to push ahead, you know, and, and I think it, all the ingredients are there, especially on the talent side,

[00:11:30] Alejandro Gutierrez: Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:11:33] Pete Townsend: But before we go,

[00:11:36] Pete Townsend: tell me what is the best way that people can get in touch with you to learn more about what's going on with Superteam in Ireland but specifically as well what's going on with both Buildstation and Castle DAO.

[00:11:48] Alejandro Gutierrez: Yeah, so well best place X and LinkedIn. You can look for me over there, Alejandro Gutierrez. Also follow Superteam Ireland on X . Look, [00:12:00] yeah, there has been a lot of work actually at the beginning of the year on Buildstation and Colosseum.

[00:12:05] Alejandro Gutierrez: The largest Web3 hackathon and or like a startup competition in the space it's $2.5 million in investment and $250 ,000 in prices.

[00:12:18] Alejandro Gutierrez: In order to support the Irish projects that are competing for Colosseum, we're taking 30 desks upstairs in Dogpatch Labs in the Urban Garden, and we're providing everything these guys need to win.

[00:12:31] Alejandro Gutierrez: So we have been consistently winning for the last three Colosseums in Ireland, and we want more winners. This time we have record registration from Ireland. We have 160 people registered. And we so far have close to 70 projects that are submitting this time, which is crazy.

[00:12:52] Pete Townsend: That's gonna be a lot of pitches.

[00:12:54] Alejandro Gutierrez: There's going to be a lot of pitches, and I think probably we need to just change that Pete because [00:13:00] nobody's going to sit through 70 pitches.

[00:13:02] Alejandro Gutierrez: And the other thing that we're doing is Castle DAO. So the idea is to have two weeks residency for the brightest minds in Ireland and around the globe for them to come to Ireland to just explore Ireland and put Ireland in the map as a hub for Web3. Should I disclose where we're hosting this Pete?

[00:13:22] Pete Townsend: I think it's a big coup, shall I say?

[00:13:25] Alejandro Gutierrez: Yeah, so we're hosting this in Slane Castle.

[00:13:28] Pete Townsend: Slane Castle for those outside of Ireland is an iconic estate and castle where the likes of U2 Bruce Springsteen, Thin Lizzy, you name them, have played and have had big Metallica Oasis

[00:13:46] Alejandro Gutierrez: Oasis Yeah. I didn't know this, but actually U2 recorded a whole album in Slane Castle.

[00:13:54] Pete Townsend: That was the Unforgettable Fire. Absolutely.

[00:13:56] Alejandro Gutierrez: It will be a, it will be a fun two weeks, that's [00:14:00] for sure.

[00:14:00] Pete Townsend: It will be epic. It will be epic. And like I said to you when you first shared this with me. I think we gotta get some music there, some traditional music or it's called in Ireland "trad" and we'll just call it TradFi, know? And

[00:14:13] Alejandro Gutierrez: The TradFi Band

[00:14:17] Pete Townsend: All right, well listen, Alejandro, thank you again for joining me. Love talking through these things with you. And I know I'll be talking to you again real soon.

[00:14:26] Alejandro Gutierrez: Thank you very much, sir. Pleasure as always.

 [00:14:29] Pete Townsend: and to all of you, thanks so much for listening and watching. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and pop us in a review as well. All of that helps others to find the show. It means a heck of a lot to me. Till next time, see ya.