March 6, 2026
Why Stablecoins and Banks Will Coexist | Emma Landriault | JPM Coin (EP. 306)
Money doesn’t become digital overnight.
It becomes digital when the rails of finance begin to change.
In this episode of MoneyNeverSleeps, Pete Townsend speaks with Emma Landriault of JPMorgan about why stablecoins and bank-issued deposit tokens may end up reinforcing, rather than replacing, each other.
Emma Landriault is Executive Director at JPMorgan and global product lead for JPM Coin, a deposit token that enables institutional clients to move money between accounts in real time, 24/7.
Drawing on her work building deposit tokens and financial market infrastructure, Emma explains why stablecoins, deposit tokens, and potentially central bank digital currencies represent different layers of the financial system rather than competing forms of money.
Across crypto, fintech, and traditional finance, the conversation around stablecoins, tokenised deposits, and onchain settlement is moving from experimentation toward real financial infrastructure. Companies such as Stripe, Visa, Mastercard, and major global banks are increasingly integrating these rails into payments, treasury, and settlement systems.
Rather than replacing banks, digital money is emerging as a modular system where different forms of value serve different roles — from programmable treasury operations to onchain settlement and institutional liquidity management.
This isn’t a crypto-versus-banks conversation. It’s a discussion about financial architecture, interoperability, and how the rails of global finance are quietly evolving.
We cover:
• Why stablecoins and bank-issued deposit tokens are designed to coexist
• How liability and trust anchors shape different forms of digital money
• Why corporate treasurers are beginning to manage liquidity directly from wallets
• What programmable treasury operations could mean for financial workflows
• How traditional institutions are approaching onchain assets and digital markets
• Why the future financial system may look more like interconnected networks than isolated payment systems
Emma brings a systems-level perspective shaped by building real financial infrastructure inside one of the world’s largest banks, explaining why operational reality matters as much as technological innovation — and why the next phase of digital finance will likely be defined by interoperability rather than disruption.
If you’re a founder, operator, or investor trying to understand how traditional finance and onchain systems are beginning to converge, this episode offers a practical perspective on where things may be heading.
⏱️ Chapters
00:00 – Why stablecoins and banks can coexist
01:00 – Layers of digital money
02:30 – Liability, trust, and financial infrastructure
04:10 – Deposit tokens vs stablecoins
06:00 – Yield, liquidity, and treasury operations
07:10 – How corporate treasurers use digital assets
08:40 – Programmable treasury and wallet infrastructure
10:00 – Institutional interest in onchain finance
11:15 – Convergence and network-based financial systems
13:00 – The future architecture of digital money
13:40 – Closing thoughts
For full show notes and guest links, see below.
MoneyNeverSleeps explores one big idea each week in under 15 minutes with founders, operators, and investors shaping crypto, fintech, AI, and onchain finance.
If you're interested in where financial infrastructure is heading — from stablecoins and tokenized assets to AI-driven markets — subscribe and join the conversation.
🌐 https://www.moneyneversleeps.ie/
#Stablecoins #DigitalMoney #OnchainFinance
1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160
But I think our view has been
broadly speaking that these
2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,720
types of digital money will
coexist, right?
3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,680
I think we usually view it as
like layers to the cake and
4
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,600
these layers of the cake will
find finality into one another
5
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,880
to make sure that like frankly
we maintain financial stability
6
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,200
within these specific
currencies.
7
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,160
This is Money Never Sleeps,
sharp riffs, big ideas and real
8
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,160
insights from smart people.
IP Townsend.
9
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,880
Let's go money.
Never sleeps, pal.
10
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,159
So joining the show today is
Emma Landrieu.
11
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,480
She's the executive director of
JP Morgan's product lead for JPM
12
00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,920
Coin, which is a deposit token
that allows institutional
13
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,320
clients to move money between
accounts in real time, 24/7
14
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,160
globally.
Welcome to the show, Emma.
15
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,800
Thanks for having me, Pete.
I'm happy to be here.
16
00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:51,360
Awesome.
And you are one of the fantastic
17
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,320
people that I shared a dinner
table with, hosted by the one
18
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,200
and only Adi Benari from Applied
Blockchain after his event in
19
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,520
Barcelona a few months back.
What are the things you said
20
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,400
over dinner that stuck with me?
Is this you use the word coexist
21
00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,440
when you're talking about banks
and stable coins?
22
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,400
I'd love to dig into that a bit,
but first I want to provide a
23
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,280
bit of context and that we do
keep hearing that banks and
24
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,720
stable coins are competing, but
that might be like saying that
25
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,080
Fedwire competes with Visa.
Are we just confusing layers of
26
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:25,080
the system?
What do you think?
27
00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:27,640
Yeah.
It's such a, it's such a good
28
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,440
question.
And I think something that like
29
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,000
I'm sure you hear like me all
the time, right, when these
30
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,080
conversations come up.
But I think our view has been
31
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,920
broadly speaking that these
types of digital money will
32
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,600
coexist and not just deposit
tokens, which would be issued by
33
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160
banks as you know, insured
depository institution, but also
34
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,920
central bank digital currencies
and staples, right.
35
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,520
I think we usually view it as
like layers to the cake.
36
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,320
So they will, you know, you have
stables that can kind of be this
37
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,320
idea of like M2 money.
And then just like today you
38
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,200
have commercial bank money that
sits as M1 money and then
39
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,240
central bank money that sits as
M0 money.
40
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,160
And to break that down, what it
really means is like each of
41
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,160
these types of money will find
finality in one another.
42
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,280
So you'll have stables which can
trade fully on chain, but they
43
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,720
still need off ramping right at
some point.
44
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,520
Or for things like deposit
tokens where they're also on
45
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,040
chain, you may have, you know,
clients who will use stables for
46
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,240
certain sets of use cases like
making payments for hard to
47
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,600
reach corridors or to, you know,
counter parties that they don't
48
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,880
know to those kind of more
freely transferable use cases.
49
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,960
And then those stables will
eventually find their finality
50
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,960
to maintain, you know,
integration into the existing
51
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,320
financial system in commercial
bank money.
52
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,000
Broadly speaking, you know,
commercial bank or central banks
53
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,440
throughout the world are
obviously having conversations
54
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,560
of should there be finality for
systemically important
55
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,200
stablecoin into central bank
money.
56
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,240
But I think as it stands right
now, the prevailing model is
57
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,480
that they then need to find that
integration into commercial bank
58
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,480
money so that, you know, parties
can want either off ramp or just
59
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,840
trade the credit risk, right,
and not be holding stablepoint
60
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,960
credit risk, which can either be
with the issuers, with the
61
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,600
underlying reserve banks of
those issuers, but also in
62
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,320
certain cases with the exchanges
or like even hosted wallet
63
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,800
providers, right, depending on
the model of how they're holding
64
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,760
those stables.
So find finality into that
65
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,000
commercial bank money.
The commercial bank money will
66
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,720
you know, be sitting in existing
either one accounts or if
67
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,960
they're in the form of deposit
tokens, nonetheless in deposit.
68
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,040
And I think from that you have,
you know, the same risk
69
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,320
management practices, stress
Capital Management, right?
70
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,000
The same practices that
currently underlie the financial
71
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,080
system today from a risk
management perspective.
72
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,240
But of course what we don't want
to get to is a scenario where
73
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,120
you have, you know, a dollar
from one bank trading
74
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,800
differently than a dollar from
another bank.
75
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,720
And so the same way that we do
today in account based money in
76
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,120
both of these deposit token
scenarios and in the existing
77
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,000
bank account scenarios, those
dollars find finality with their
78
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,040
central bank money, right, to
make sure that you maintain
79
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,000
singleness of that specific
currency.
80
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960
And so I think our view has been
like, yes, there will be
81
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,000
different use cases at the
surface level, but that
82
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360
relationship will continue to
coexist and these layers of the
83
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,640
cake will find finality into one
another to make sure that like
84
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,399
frankly, we maintain financial
stability within these specific
85
00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,160
currencies and domestic
economies.
86
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,640
Yeah, it's an interesting kind
of juxtaposition in that like
87
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,840
you said a minute ago that it
what we don't want to happen is
88
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,440
for there to be a lack of
equality between stable coins
89
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440
and deposit tokens based upon
the issuer.
90
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,600
This kind of comes back to, like
you said about who carries the
91
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,240
liability and who carries the
trust in that with stable coins,
92
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,720
you have a full reserve and that
is backed by usually high
93
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,040
quality liquid assets.
With deposit tokens, they are
94
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,280
backed by backed deposits,
right?
95
00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:57,840
That is a little bit of a
difference there.
96
00:04:57,840 --> 00:04:59,520
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I think it's exactly
97
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,760
that, right, Pete.
So from a stable coin
98
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,960
perspective, like you said, you
know, high quality liquid
99
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,920
assets, those high quality
liquid assets are held at other
100
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,240
underlying reserve institutions
right across the board, usually
101
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,400
more than one that are holding
these reserve assets.
102
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,720
And you know it's deposits, it's
treasuries, it's other super
103
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,520
liquid liquid assets.
And the way that these stables
104
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,760
are maintaining their peg is
that the net asset value.
105
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,640
So the NAB of all of that basket
of assets has to always be equal
106
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,920
to or more right than the number
of that specific stable coin in
107
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,560
circulation.
Whereas with the deposit token,
108
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,480
it's simply that it's issued as
a dollar.
109
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,560
So currently we're live in in
with JPM coin in U.S. dollar, so
110
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,360
it's issued as AUS dollar off
our U.S. dollar balance sheet.
111
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,320
So one deposit token is 1 line
item on our balance sheet from a
112
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,640
demand deposit that we actually
issue to our clients.
113
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,120
So it's a claim against the bank
that represents the client's
114
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,440
funds.
And so from that perspective, it
115
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640
is by design commercial bank
money which brings, and I
116
00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,400
touched on this a little bit
earlier, but it brings familiar
117
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,200
right like Capital Management
practices right behind the
118
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,360
scenes.
So it means if it's aggregated
119
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,520
as part of our total deposit
positions as a bank, from a risk
120
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,640
management, from a Capital
Management, from a stress
121
00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,200
testing, from a consolidated
balance sheet reporting and a
122
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,360
prudential liquidity reporting
requirements, they sit the same
123
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,600
as any other deposit because
that's frankly what they are.
124
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,840
Because they are then, you know,
structured as a deposit, it
125
00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,120
creates 2 really key benefits.
The asset itself is able to bear
126
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,160
yield directly because it is
just a demand deposit and bears
127
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,880
yield like any other demand
deposit.
128
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,640
And it also ensures that you
have those like really quick on
129
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,280
and off ramps into accounts
without changing the nature of
130
00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,680
the asset, which I think is
really useful when we talk
131
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,600
about, and you said this at the
top of the, the show, like this
132
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,320
is designed for institutional
clients.
133
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,480
I think once you start to get
into like really sophisticated
134
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,440
treasuries, there's a benefit
for this to not actually change
135
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,920
nature when it's on chain versus
off chain, right?
136
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,240
It's like a ease of use.
When I'm talking to the
137
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,800
corporate treasurers and trying
to, you know, trying to shed
138
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,480
some light on some new options
that they have, there's going to
139
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,960
be points in time where they
would reach for a stable coin.
140
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,760
There's going to be points in
time where they would reach for
141
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,520
a deposit token in order to
conduct their business and
142
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,320
liquidity and their flows.
What?
143
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,160
What's the split there?
It's a good question.
144
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,800
I mean, I think that with the
like display, it could be a
145
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600
little bit down to like how does
that treasure prefer to manage
146
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,280
their liquidity?
And I say this because having
147
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,560
built this product out, which is
really the first kind of deposit
148
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,800
token of it's kind, right?
That's on public chain, we're
149
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,120
seeing a couple of different
things.
150
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,760
Like 1 is you have corporate
treasurers who already have
151
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,960
large, you know, Web 3 holdings,
right?
152
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,440
They're holding staples, they
may be holding other cryptos,
153
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,440
they're holding other tokenized
assets.
154
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,640
And I think for those parties,
one of the things that we've
155
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,720
seen emerging from a trend
perspective is like an interest
156
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,000
in being able to add their
native deposits to the way that
157
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,360
they're managing their
treasuries today, which is out
158
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,440
of wallets, right?
Believe it or not, but if these
159
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,000
are like web three native
companies, they're not normally
160
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,720
managing everything through the
existing treasury management
161
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,680
systems and rails, but they have
this like more sophisticated
162
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,200
wallet based infrastructure.
So we've seen quite a bit of
163
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,360
interest in being able to hold
deposits alongside there, you
164
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,840
know, for the treasurers who
that's really their bread and
165
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,440
butter of how they manage it.
And I think like diving one
166
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,920
layer deeper into that for those
who are not maybe talking to a
167
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,160
lot of corporate treasurers in
this space, it's like it's super
168
00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,280
beneficial because you can add
things like programmability to
169
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,920
the wallet interfaces
themselves.
170
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,320
So you have actually like this
idea of like programmable
171
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,240
treasure, which is something
near and dear to our heart at
172
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,799
Conexus and we've actually
enabled on our private rails
173
00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:38,600
with programmable payments.
But you have that natively with
174
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,840
this wallet infrastructure.
And so it's very beneficial for
175
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,919
treasures who want to start
automating some of these more
176
00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:47,120
complex work flows to be able to
do that out of their wallet
177
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,160
interfaces.
And so we see that kind of
178
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,080
sitting alongside, you know the
other existing holdings that
179
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,400
they would have and making sure
that they have part of their
180
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,320
deposit position within there.
And I think importantly also
181
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,600
like interoperability or rails
where they can move from a
182
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,000
specific natively, you know,
crypto asset, whether it's a
183
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,120
crypto or a stable and like move
some of that credit risk back
184
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,800
into a deposit and being able to
fully do that on chain.
185
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,400
So that's kind of 1 profile that
we're, that we're seeing.
186
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,480
And I think the second profile
that we're seeing, I talked
187
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,480
about it a bit when you and I
were catching up off camera,
188
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,360
right, was we're starting to see
this whole like ecosystem, you
189
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,240
know, I, I call it like
equitization, which is
190
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,040
definitely not a word, but it
kind of is equitization of
191
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,640
crypto, right?
Where it's like have like crypto
192
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,480
dats and you have these like
natively issued RW as that are
193
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,120
actually first issued on chain.
They don't exist soft chain,
194
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,920
tons of money market funds.
So all of like the development
195
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,680
of this entire ecosystem.
And I think from some of the
196
00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:48,720
other traditional institutions,
they're very interested in
197
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,880
coming into this space, right?
And investing in this space or
198
00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,120
even market making this space
right, but maybe didn't have the
199
00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,120
risk appetite or the compliance
comfort right or lack the
200
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,640
balance sheet certainty to
actually be able to use the base
201
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360
liquidity layer of stables.
And so the other big profile
202
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,400
that we're seeing is like those
parties who would be interested
203
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:12,720
in potentially engaging in this
Web 3 ecosystem, but need to do
204
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,840
so with like a form of
commercial bank money that they
205
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,760
can move through day-to-day,
that they can very quickly off
206
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,160
ramp into accounts and perform
their end of day treasury OPS.
207
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,560
And so all of those end of day
treasury OPS don't go away just
208
00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,360
because you want to have
exposure on the public chain.
209
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,200
And so we've also seen the
second profile is the treasurers
210
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,200
who are very interested in, you
know, engaging in this space for
211
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,360
yield, right?
Or their core business wants to
212
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,080
invest in this space or even
make payments on public chain,
213
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,600
right?
Whether it's getting feet dirty
214
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,320
or seeing the benefit of making
payments on a on a rail where it
215
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,600
can be real time, but just
having like, you know, an
216
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,760
inability to really hold staples
as it is.
217
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,960
And that's the other parties
that we start to see quite a bit
218
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,040
of interest in this and where
they may reach for a deposit
219
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,560
token over, you know, other
crypto assets.
220
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,680
Looking at the future, Emma, if
both models do succeed, what do
221
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,480
you think the financial system
actually looks like in five
222
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,120
years?
Will it be two parallel
223
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760
ecosystems or one interoperable
stack?
224
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,440
Yeah.
I mean, I think and I don't know
225
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,720
if you've been hearing this in
your many conversations in the
226
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040
space, Pete, but like the word
of 2026 is convergence.
227
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,680
I think we're starting to see
like even certain stable coin of
228
00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,200
fintech providers like looking
to get fed accounts, right.
229
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,080
Also significantly more like I
said that equitization of
230
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,320
various like crypto assets and
we're starting to see like not I
231
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,120
talked about Dats and money
market funds, but we're also
232
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,400
starting to see like structured
products right being developed
233
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,480
in this like ecosystem.
And so that becomes even more
234
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,560
appealing to a number of like
asset managers or other kind of
235
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,840
traditional financial
institutional parties who want
236
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,760
that exposure.
So I think we're looking at
237
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,280
increased convergence.
One of the things that I would
238
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,000
say we're seeing already and
we've been building towards that
239
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,800
connects this for quite some
time is that we do believe that
240
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,920
we're going to see more
proliferation of like network
241
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,320
based architectures.
Like Ethereum is a good example
242
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,160
of this.
Or even other projects that
243
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,960
we've been a part of, like the
global layer one project where
244
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,520
you have, you know, specific
networks that have all the
245
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,040
parties on that network to begin
with.
246
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,480
And then we build out
foundational types of assets,
247
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,920
foundational types of money and
things like wallets and
248
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,720
verifiable credentials.
So those primitives to actually
249
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,840
know like how can we trade at an
asset layer and then who are the
250
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,720
various parties trading and how
can they hold multiple asset?
251
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,680
And then from there you start
building applications on top of
252
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,280
that, right?
Which again is like what we've
253
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,720
seen with Etherium, what we've
seen with the global layer one
254
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,920
project where then you can have
banks, you can have like you
255
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,480
said the Defy protocols, you can
have anybody really come in and
256
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,240
build out applications that
touch those foundational layers.
257
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,120
And we do believe that doing
that with the right
258
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,800
permissioning will help increase
resilience and security in the
259
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,680
way that assets and money are
moving.
260
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,760
As long as, like I said, you
have the right KYC that's like
261
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,520
sitting within that or the right
digital identity sitting within
262
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,800
that, that can really be a
strong architecture that doesn't
263
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,160
exist today and I think
importantly brings unprecedented
264
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,520
like access to new financial
services and new applications.
265
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,640
And so we do believe that like
convergence will be a big part
266
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,320
of this system that these
different types of money will
267
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,800
coexist, but that will also be
moving not fully away, but more
268
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,280
and more towards right and
network based architecture for
269
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,560
those benefits that it can
bring.
270
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:22,880
Absolutely.
Yeah.
271
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,000
It's so wonderful to talk about
these kinds of things with you,
272
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,280
Emma, because so many of the
conversations that I do have
273
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,360
outside of the day-to-day,
people just don't know that this
274
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,040
stuff exists.
We're definitely in a strong
275
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,280
period of convergence, so thank
you for joining.
276
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,920
What's the best way for people
to follow your work and learn
277
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,160
more about what you're working
on?
278
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,680
Yeah.
So thank you so much for having
279
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,240
me and yeah, the best way.
So I mean, of course, we have
280
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,360
the, you know, connects this
website as part of the JP Morgan
281
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,200
website for any of the, you
know, net new thought leadership
282
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,440
that we're posting.
It always kind of sits within
283
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,680
there.
And then for me personally,
284
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:56,160
LinkedIn is probably the best
place.
285
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,480
So you'll see my name here.
Feel free to find me on
286
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,760
LinkedIn.
Wonderful.
287
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,040
Thank you, Emma.
Thank you so much for having me,
288
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:02,880
Pete.
We'll have to have a dinner
289
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,200
again soon.
I can't wait to talk about all
290
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,840
these topics one more time.
Absolutely.
291
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,360
Thank you.
Thank you.
292
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,840
Money never sleeps, pal.
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160
But I think our view has been
broadly speaking that these
2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,720
types of digital money will
coexist, right?
3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,680
I think we usually view it as
like layers to the cake and
4
00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,600
these layers of the cake will
find finality into one another
5
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,880
to make sure that like frankly
we maintain financial stability
6
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,200
within these specific
currencies.
7
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,160
This is Money Never Sleeps,
sharp riffs, big ideas and real
8
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,160
insights from smart people.
IP Townsend.
9
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,880
Let's go money.
Never sleeps, pal.
10
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,159
So joining the show today is
Emma Landrieu.
11
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,480
She's the executive director of
JP Morgan's product lead for JPM
12
00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,920
Coin, which is a deposit token
that allows institutional
13
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,320
clients to move money between
accounts in real time, 24/7
14
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,160
globally.
Welcome to the show, Emma.
15
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,800
Thanks for having me, Pete.
I'm happy to be here.
16
00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:51,360
Awesome.
And you are one of the fantastic
17
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,320
people that I shared a dinner
table with, hosted by the one
18
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,200
and only Adi Benari from Applied
Blockchain after his event in
19
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,520
Barcelona a few months back.
What are the things you said
20
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,400
over dinner that stuck with me?
Is this you use the word coexist
21
00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,440
when you're talking about banks
and stable coins?
22
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,400
I'd love to dig into that a bit,
but first I want to provide a
23
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,280
bit of context and that we do
keep hearing that banks and
24
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,720
stable coins are competing, but
that might be like saying that
25
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,080
Fedwire competes with Visa.
Are we just confusing layers of
26
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:25,080
the system?
What do you think?
27
00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:27,640
Yeah.
It's such a, it's such a good
28
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,440
question.
And I think something that like
29
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,000
I'm sure you hear like me all
the time, right, when these
30
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,080
conversations come up.
But I think our view has been
31
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,920
broadly speaking that these
types of digital money will
32
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,600
coexist and not just deposit
tokens, which would be issued by
33
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160
banks as you know, insured
depository institution, but also
34
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,920
central bank digital currencies
and staples, right.
35
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,520
I think we usually view it as
like layers to the cake.
36
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,320
So they will, you know, you have
stables that can kind of be this
37
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,320
idea of like M2 money.
And then just like today you
38
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,200
have commercial bank money that
sits as M1 money and then
39
00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,240
central bank money that sits as
M0 money.
40
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,160
And to break that down, what it
really means is like each of
41
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,160
these types of money will find
finality in one another.
42
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,280
So you'll have stables which can
trade fully on chain, but they
43
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,720
still need off ramping right at
some point.
44
00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,520
Or for things like deposit
tokens where they're also on
45
00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,040
chain, you may have, you know,
clients who will use stables for
46
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,240
certain sets of use cases like
making payments for hard to
47
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,600
reach corridors or to, you know,
counter parties that they don't
48
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,880
know to those kind of more
freely transferable use cases.
49
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,960
And then those stables will
eventually find their finality
50
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,960
to maintain, you know,
integration into the existing
51
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,320
financial system in commercial
bank money.
52
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,000
Broadly speaking, you know,
commercial bank or central banks
53
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,440
throughout the world are
obviously having conversations
54
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,560
of should there be finality for
systemically important
55
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,200
stablecoin into central bank
money.
56
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,240
But I think as it stands right
now, the prevailing model is
57
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,480
that they then need to find that
integration into commercial bank
58
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,480
money so that, you know, parties
can want either off ramp or just
59
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,840
trade the credit risk, right,
and not be holding stablepoint
60
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,960
credit risk, which can either be
with the issuers, with the
61
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,600
underlying reserve banks of
those issuers, but also in
62
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,320
certain cases with the exchanges
or like even hosted wallet
63
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,800
providers, right, depending on
the model of how they're holding
64
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,760
those stables.
So find finality into that
65
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,000
commercial bank money.
The commercial bank money will
66
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,720
you know, be sitting in existing
either one accounts or if
67
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,960
they're in the form of deposit
tokens, nonetheless in deposit.
68
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,040
And I think from that you have,
you know, the same risk
69
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,320
management practices, stress
Capital Management, right?
70
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,000
The same practices that
currently underlie the financial
71
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,080
system today from a risk
management perspective.
72
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,240
But of course what we don't want
to get to is a scenario where
73
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,120
you have, you know, a dollar
from one bank trading
74
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,800
differently than a dollar from
another bank.
75
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,720
And so the same way that we do
today in account based money in
76
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,120
both of these deposit token
scenarios and in the existing
77
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,000
bank account scenarios, those
dollars find finality with their
78
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,040
central bank money, right, to
make sure that you maintain
79
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,000
singleness of that specific
currency.
80
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960
And so I think our view has been
like, yes, there will be
81
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,000
different use cases at the
surface level, but that
82
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360
relationship will continue to
coexist and these layers of the
83
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,640
cake will find finality into one
another to make sure that like
84
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,399
frankly, we maintain financial
stability within these specific
85
00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,160
currencies and domestic
economies.
86
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,640
Yeah, it's an interesting kind
of juxtaposition in that like
87
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,840
you said a minute ago that it
what we don't want to happen is
88
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,440
for there to be a lack of
equality between stable coins
89
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440
and deposit tokens based upon
the issuer.
90
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,600
This kind of comes back to, like
you said about who carries the
91
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,240
liability and who carries the
trust in that with stable coins,
92
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,720
you have a full reserve and that
is backed by usually high
93
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,040
quality liquid assets.
With deposit tokens, they are
94
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,280
backed by backed deposits,
right?
95
00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:57,840
That is a little bit of a
difference there.
96
00:04:57,840 --> 00:04:59,520
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I think it's exactly
97
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,760
that, right, Pete.
So from a stable coin
98
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,960
perspective, like you said, you
know, high quality liquid
99
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,920
assets, those high quality
liquid assets are held at other
100
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,240
underlying reserve institutions
right across the board, usually
101
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,400
more than one that are holding
these reserve assets.
102
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,720
And you know it's deposits, it's
treasuries, it's other super
103
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,520
liquid liquid assets.
And the way that these stables
104
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,760
are maintaining their peg is
that the net asset value.
105
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,640
So the NAB of all of that basket
of assets has to always be equal
106
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,920
to or more right than the number
of that specific stable coin in
107
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,560
circulation.
Whereas with the deposit token,
108
00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,480
it's simply that it's issued as
a dollar.
109
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,560
So currently we're live in in
with JPM coin in U.S. dollar, so
110
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,360
it's issued as AUS dollar off
our U.S. dollar balance sheet.
111
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,320
So one deposit token is 1 line
item on our balance sheet from a
112
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,640
demand deposit that we actually
issue to our clients.
113
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,120
So it's a claim against the bank
that represents the client's
114
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,440
funds.
And so from that perspective, it
115
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640
is by design commercial bank
money which brings, and I
116
00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,400
touched on this a little bit
earlier, but it brings familiar
117
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,200
right like Capital Management
practices right behind the
118
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,360
scenes.
So it means if it's aggregated
119
00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,520
as part of our total deposit
positions as a bank, from a risk
120
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,640
management, from a Capital
Management, from a stress
121
00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,200
testing, from a consolidated
balance sheet reporting and a
122
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,360
prudential liquidity reporting
requirements, they sit the same
123
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,600
as any other deposit because
that's frankly what they are.
124
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,840
Because they are then, you know,
structured as a deposit, it
125
00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,120
creates 2 really key benefits.
The asset itself is able to bear
126
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,160
yield directly because it is
just a demand deposit and bears
127
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,880
yield like any other demand
deposit.
128
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,640
And it also ensures that you
have those like really quick on
129
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,280
and off ramps into accounts
without changing the nature of
130
00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,680
the asset, which I think is
really useful when we talk
131
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,600
about, and you said this at the
top of the, the show, like this
132
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,320
is designed for institutional
clients.
133
00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,480
I think once you start to get
into like really sophisticated
134
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,440
treasuries, there's a benefit
for this to not actually change
135
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,920
nature when it's on chain versus
off chain, right?
136
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,240
It's like a ease of use.
When I'm talking to the
137
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,800
corporate treasurers and trying
to, you know, trying to shed
138
00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,480
some light on some new options
that they have, there's going to
139
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,960
be points in time where they
would reach for a stable coin.
140
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,760
There's going to be points in
time where they would reach for
141
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,520
a deposit token in order to
conduct their business and
142
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,320
liquidity and their flows.
What?
143
00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,160
What's the split there?
It's a good question.
144
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,800
I mean, I think that with the
like display, it could be a
145
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600
little bit down to like how does
that treasure prefer to manage
146
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,280
their liquidity?
And I say this because having
147
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,560
built this product out, which is
really the first kind of deposit
148
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,800
token of it's kind, right?
That's on public chain, we're
149
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,120
seeing a couple of different
things.
150
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,760
Like 1 is you have corporate
treasurers who already have
151
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,960
large, you know, Web 3 holdings,
right?
152
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,440
They're holding staples, they
may be holding other cryptos,
153
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,440
they're holding other tokenized
assets.
154
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,640
And I think for those parties,
one of the things that we've
155
00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,720
seen emerging from a trend
perspective is like an interest
156
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,000
in being able to add their
native deposits to the way that
157
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,360
they're managing their
treasuries today, which is out
158
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,440
of wallets, right?
Believe it or not, but if these
159
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,000
are like web three native
companies, they're not normally
160
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,720
managing everything through the
existing treasury management
161
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,680
systems and rails, but they have
this like more sophisticated
162
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,200
wallet based infrastructure.
So we've seen quite a bit of
163
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,360
interest in being able to hold
deposits alongside there, you
164
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,840
know, for the treasurers who
that's really their bread and
165
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,440
butter of how they manage it.
And I think like diving one
166
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,920
layer deeper into that for those
who are not maybe talking to a
167
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,160
lot of corporate treasurers in
this space, it's like it's super
168
00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,280
beneficial because you can add
things like programmability to
169
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,920
the wallet interfaces
themselves.
170
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,320
So you have actually like this
idea of like programmable
171
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,240
treasure, which is something
near and dear to our heart at
172
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,799
Conexus and we've actually
enabled on our private rails
173
00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:38,600
with programmable payments.
But you have that natively with
174
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,840
this wallet infrastructure.
And so it's very beneficial for
175
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,919
treasures who want to start
automating some of these more
176
00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:47,120
complex work flows to be able to
do that out of their wallet
177
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,160
interfaces.
And so we see that kind of
178
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,080
sitting alongside, you know the
other existing holdings that
179
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,400
they would have and making sure
that they have part of their
180
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,320
deposit position within there.
And I think importantly also
181
00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,600
like interoperability or rails
where they can move from a
182
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,000
specific natively, you know,
crypto asset, whether it's a
183
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,120
crypto or a stable and like move
some of that credit risk back
184
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,800
into a deposit and being able to
fully do that on chain.
185
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,400
So that's kind of 1 profile that
we're, that we're seeing.
186
00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,480
And I think the second profile
that we're seeing, I talked
187
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,480
about it a bit when you and I
were catching up off camera,
188
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,360
right, was we're starting to see
this whole like ecosystem, you
189
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,240
know, I, I call it like
equitization, which is
190
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,040
definitely not a word, but it
kind of is equitization of
191
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,640
crypto, right?
Where it's like have like crypto
192
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,480
dats and you have these like
natively issued RW as that are
193
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,120
actually first issued on chain.
They don't exist soft chain,
194
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,920
tons of money market funds.
So all of like the development
195
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,680
of this entire ecosystem.
And I think from some of the
196
00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:48,720
other traditional institutions,
they're very interested in
197
00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,880
coming into this space, right?
And investing in this space or
198
00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,120
even market making this space
right, but maybe didn't have the
199
00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,120
risk appetite or the compliance
comfort right or lack the
200
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,640
balance sheet certainty to
actually be able to use the base
201
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360
liquidity layer of stables.
And so the other big profile
202
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,400
that we're seeing is like those
parties who would be interested
203
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:12,720
in potentially engaging in this
Web 3 ecosystem, but need to do
204
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,840
so with like a form of
commercial bank money that they
205
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,760
can move through day-to-day,
that they can very quickly off
206
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,160
ramp into accounts and perform
their end of day treasury OPS.
207
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,560
And so all of those end of day
treasury OPS don't go away just
208
00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,360
because you want to have
exposure on the public chain.
209
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,200
And so we've also seen the
second profile is the treasurers
210
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,200
who are very interested in, you
know, engaging in this space for
211
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,360
yield, right?
Or their core business wants to
212
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,080
invest in this space or even
make payments on public chain,
213
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,600
right?
Whether it's getting feet dirty
214
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,320
or seeing the benefit of making
payments on a on a rail where it
215
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,600
can be real time, but just
having like, you know, an
216
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,760
inability to really hold staples
as it is.
217
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,960
And that's the other parties
that we start to see quite a bit
218
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,040
of interest in this and where
they may reach for a deposit
219
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,560
token over, you know, other
crypto assets.
220
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,680
Looking at the future, Emma, if
both models do succeed, what do
221
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:05,480
you think the financial system
actually looks like in five
222
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,120
years?
Will it be two parallel
223
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760
ecosystems or one interoperable
stack?
224
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,440
Yeah.
I mean, I think and I don't know
225
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,720
if you've been hearing this in
your many conversations in the
226
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,040
space, Pete, but like the word
of 2026 is convergence.
227
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,680
I think we're starting to see
like even certain stable coin of
228
00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:23,200
fintech providers like looking
to get fed accounts, right.
229
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,080
Also significantly more like I
said that equitization of
230
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,320
various like crypto assets and
we're starting to see like not I
231
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,120
talked about Dats and money
market funds, but we're also
232
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,400
starting to see like structured
products right being developed
233
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,480
in this like ecosystem.
And so that becomes even more
234
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,560
appealing to a number of like
asset managers or other kind of
235
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,840
traditional financial
institutional parties who want
236
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,760
that exposure.
So I think we're looking at
237
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,280
increased convergence.
One of the things that I would
238
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,000
say we're seeing already and
we've been building towards that
239
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,800
connects this for quite some
time is that we do believe that
240
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,920
we're going to see more
proliferation of like network
241
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,320
based architectures.
Like Ethereum is a good example
242
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,160
of this.
Or even other projects that
243
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,960
we've been a part of, like the
global layer one project where
244
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,520
you have, you know, specific
networks that have all the
245
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,040
parties on that network to begin
with.
246
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,480
And then we build out
foundational types of assets,
247
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,920
foundational types of money and
things like wallets and
248
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,720
verifiable credentials.
So those primitives to actually
249
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,840
know like how can we trade at an
asset layer and then who are the
250
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,720
various parties trading and how
can they hold multiple asset?
251
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,680
And then from there you start
building applications on top of
252
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,280
that, right?
Which again is like what we've
253
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,720
seen with Etherium, what we've
seen with the global layer one
254
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,920
project where then you can have
banks, you can have like you
255
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,480
said the Defy protocols, you can
have anybody really come in and
256
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,240
build out applications that
touch those foundational layers.
257
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,120
And we do believe that doing
that with the right
258
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,800
permissioning will help increase
resilience and security in the
259
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,680
way that assets and money are
moving.
260
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,760
As long as, like I said, you
have the right KYC that's like
261
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,520
sitting within that or the right
digital identity sitting within
262
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,800
that, that can really be a
strong architecture that doesn't
263
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,160
exist today and I think
importantly brings unprecedented
264
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,520
like access to new financial
services and new applications.
265
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,640
And so we do believe that like
convergence will be a big part
266
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,320
of this system that these
different types of money will
267
00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,800
coexist, but that will also be
moving not fully away, but more
268
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,280
and more towards right and
network based architecture for
269
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,560
those benefits that it can
bring.
270
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:22,880
Absolutely.
Yeah.
271
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,000
It's so wonderful to talk about
these kinds of things with you,
272
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,280
Emma, because so many of the
conversations that I do have
273
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,360
outside of the day-to-day,
people just don't know that this
274
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,040
stuff exists.
We're definitely in a strong
275
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,280
period of convergence, so thank
you for joining.
276
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,920
What's the best way for people
to follow your work and learn
277
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,160
more about what you're working
on?
278
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,680
Yeah.
So thank you so much for having
279
00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,240
me and yeah, the best way.
So I mean, of course, we have
280
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,360
the, you know, connects this
website as part of the JP Morgan
281
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,200
website for any of the, you
know, net new thought leadership
282
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,440
that we're posting.
It always kind of sits within
283
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:54,680
there.
And then for me personally,
284
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:56,160
LinkedIn is probably the best
place.
285
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,480
So you'll see my name here.
Feel free to find me on
286
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,760
LinkedIn.
Wonderful.
287
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,040
Thank you, Emma.
Thank you so much for having me,
288
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:02,880
Pete.
We'll have to have a dinner
289
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,200
again soon.
I can't wait to talk about all
290
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,840
these topics one more time.
Absolutely.
291
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,360
Thank you.
Thank you.
292
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,840
Money never sleeps, pal.
