293: Building Bridges: Simon Brown on Ethereum’s Cultural Gravity and Consensys Network State

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Money never sleeps, pal.
Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend and

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This is Money Never Sleeps.
We look inside the minds of

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entrepreneurs and at the
crossover of startups,

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enterprise, finance, technology
and life as we know it.

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Before we get started, just a
heads up that E Dublin is back

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again to bring Ireland on chain
with a hackathon and conferences

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May 23rd to 25th.
Yes, Etherium Co founder Vitalik

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Buterin and Ave's founder and
CEO Stanny Kulichov are both

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confirmed to speak.
It's shaping up to be a pretty

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fantastic crypto weekend here in
Dublin and absolutely one not to

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miss.
This week I'm welcoming back a

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guest who absolutely lit up our
first conversation in January of

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last year, Simon Brown from
Consensus.

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Back then we dove deep into the
over centralization of crypto

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and Simon gave me a whole new
perspective on what was really

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going on under the hood in the
Etherium ecosystem.

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Money.
Never sleeps, pal.

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Now Simon's role at Consensus
has evolved, and he's now

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leading the charge on a new
initiative called the Consensus

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Network State.
It's all about reconnecting the

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sprawl of the Etherium
ecosystem, reinforcing the

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cultural gravity that made
Etherium magical in the first

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place, and creating a more
cohesive network of builders,

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founders, and ecosystem experts.
Today, we're digging into how

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this initiative is setting the
stage for Etherium's next

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decade, how it's bridging gaps
between projects and people, and

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what it means for the future of
decentralized coordination.

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We also get into some big
picture thinking about the

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evolution of Etherium, the rise
of network States, and what it

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takes to keep that cultural
gravity intact as Etherium

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continues to grow.
So let's jump right back in with

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Simon Brown from Consensus.
All right here.

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On Money Never Sleeps.
Listen.

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Simon, great to have you back on
the show.

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Thanks for joining me again.
Yeah, thanks, Pete.

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It's great.
Great to be back.

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Awesome.
When we did our last chat back

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in January of 2024 last year,
that was really eye opening for

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me.
So thank you for that first

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chat.
Now I'm looking forward to kind

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of going in a little bit of a
different direction this time.

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So before we do that, can you
just get the listeners caught up

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on how things evolved for you
with your role with consensus

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since we last chatted in January
of 2024?

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So I mean, what's happened since
then?

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Well, a lot.
At the time I was working with

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linear a lot.
I think in consensus it was

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generally speaking, all hands on
deck trying to get linear off

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the ground.
And I'd spent a good deal of

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time working on linear
decentralization.

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So figuring out technically how
to decentralize the sequencer,

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the proofer, all of the various
different options, looking at

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how the ecosystem was evolving,
base roll ups, pre

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confirmations, all that kind of
stuff.

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But then around November, around
Devcon last year, a consensus

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really kind of pivoted its long
term strategy around, you know,

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where it was going as a company.
And Joe has this vision for

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really decentralizing consensus
itself.

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So my role changed from being
like a researcher more to

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strategy.
And I took on the role of

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leading the consensus network
state group.

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And it's really about figuring
out how that looks like.

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You know what, how we
decentralize consensus, how we

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tap into the huge diaspora that
consensus has built over the

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past 10 years of building
Ethereum, how we actually create

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a robust network where people
can really support each other

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and grow.
And so it's a very ambitious

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vision, very exciting, very glad
to be working on it.

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When you and I first met in
understanding your role as a

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researcher and then now shifting
into a strategy role, was that a

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major mindset shift for you or
was that something that was just

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a natural next step?
It was kind of a natural next

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step because all of my research
had been supporting product

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strategy anyway.
So it had a kind of a strategic

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focus.
And I think, you know, most

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senior product managers, they
kind of do a lot of research

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themselves, but they need
someone to kind of specialize in

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certain areas that are very
complex.

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And that's what I was doing.
So moving into a strategy role

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is sort of made sense, but it is
a huge domain, you know, like go

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build a network stage.
You know, that was a tough one

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to break down, but we've made
some really good progress.

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OK.
And Network state, what comes to

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mind is Balaji Srinivasan wrote
a book called Network State.

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His proposal was it listen, we
can build a state, a nation

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state that is network based.
Interestingly enough, that was

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my first starting point when
thinking about this, like

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knowing nothing about network
States and trying to get my head

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around it.
The first thing I did was read

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Balaji's book and it was
interesting.

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But like, subsequently, I
learned that a lot of the

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things, the concepts that he
discussed are, I've actually

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been around for a long time,
quite a long time actually.

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The further down the rabbit hole
I went, the more I learned that

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actually there's nothing new
here.

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And there's been these sort of
like parallel societies based on

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global diasporas for actually
quite a long time.

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And you can draw parallels
between all sorts of things, you

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know, like everything from the
Freemasons to Zionism to the

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Armenian diaspora.
But I think in the context of

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like a digital First network
nation, network sovereignty,

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whatever you want to call it,
that's new, right?

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It's in the context of this post
globalized, hyper connected

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digital society, what can we
imagine?

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And what we can imagine is quite
exciting.

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And so I think the idea of
network states, while it's still

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confusing and there's probably a
whole bunch of different

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definitions, it's starting to
enter the common vernacular a

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lot more.
And I think people are starting

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to think about the possibilities
a lot more, which is exciting.

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It is exciting.
It is exciting.

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Now we're going to get into the
consensus network state in a

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minute and what you're doing
with that.

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But what you shared with me,
Simon, really got me thinking.

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There was an excellent one liner
in your description of the

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consensus network state that
really summed it up for me quite

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well that you said Etherium has
grown so much that it is

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struggling to hold together the
cultural gravity that made it

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magical, right?
Cultural gravity really struck

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me, almost like a city that has
undergone urban sprawl and is

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trying to hold on to its
identity as a city.

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Can you talk a bit about the
context of how Etherium can hold

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its cultural gravity together?
What's the objective here?

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That's actually quite a good
analogy.

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A city that's undergone urban
sprawl and is kind of struggling

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to to maintain that coherence.
I think that sums it up pretty

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well.
I mean, a lot of people are

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quite negative about Etherium at
the moment.

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To me, the challenges that
Etherium faces are really to

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symptomatic of its maturity as
an ecosystem and any other

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ecosystem that has grown to the
huge extent that Ethereum has

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grown both economically in terms
of the use cases of the

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abandoned value on it would
experience the same problems.

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It's you couldn't say that's
growing pains, but it's

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definitely a symptom of its
success.

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And I think when you look at
kind of the conversations that

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are taking place, you can see
certain topics that tend to

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emerge.
So one of them is quite clearly

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about the value of Eve, right?
People are always talking about

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the price of Eve.
And that's an interesting kind

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of nuanced topic.
Is Eve the asset central to

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their identity?
Is it, is that what provides

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this sort of like cultural
cohesion between all of the

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different participants and
actors in the ecosystem?

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Or is it something that people
are just obsessed with, like the

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number go up and maybe it's just
that trivial to be?

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I think it's more nuanced and I
think there is, it's a very

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interesting conversation.
And I think we do need to think

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about the price of Eve and
acknowledge that economic

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alignment and cultural shared
values are kind of two sides of

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the same coin.
And so it is an interesting

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conversation as Sean Ryan Adams
actually articulates it very

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well.
And he talks about what does he

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call it, the United Chains of
Etherium, which I think Justin

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Drake originally coined that
phrase, but he talks about how

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eat the asset is kind of
culturally important.

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And so I think, you know, that
is an interesting conversation.

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It's not the only one.
You know, like I think there's

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various other topics that emerge
when you talk about like the

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implications of the pivot to the
role of centric road map.

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And now we have all of these
different L twos.

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And like economically and
culturally, Ethereum seems

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fragmented.
Again, there's a lot of nuance

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to that conversation, but it's
certainly I can see both sides

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of the argument.
And also just in terms of shared

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values, like what does it mean?
Like, what do we hold as

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important?
I remember seeing the word like

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wartime used by people talking
about like, you know, we have to

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win.
We have to be the best.

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Oh, look, Solana or stealing or
Thunder.

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It brought up some very
interesting questions about

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like, what does Ethereum stand
for and what do we hold

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important?
And how do we balance our ideals

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with pragmatism?
And I saw a lot of kind of soul

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searching, if I'm honest.
And so like, you could take only

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three of those topics, you could
spend a day talking about them.

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They don't make me bearish for
Etherium.

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Quite the opposite.
I think, you know, seeing how

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the conversations are played out
and the results from those

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conversations and what's
happening in the ecosystem makes

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me more bullish than ever on
Etherium.

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Yeah.
And to me, and you know, it's

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important to distinguish like
you said, between ETH, the asset

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and Etherium as a network, as a
community, as an ecosystem, as

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the OG.
There's two different

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conversations here.
There is the token, the coin,

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the asset.
And however people may view that

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on a short to medium term basis,
I've become over the years

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agnostic to that.
I still hold ETH because I

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believe in where it's going and
I believe in the journey, in the

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mission.
And that is what was a critical

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point for me in my own
development in this space back

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in 2014 where I read the Bitcoin
white paper 1st.

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And yes, a bit late in the game
for that from where it came

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from.
But then it was just very lucky

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with the timing of when the ETH
white paper came out.

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And that for me from my point of
discovery and learning about

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Bitcoin and the possibilities of
blockchain.

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And then I saw Etherium take it
to a whole new level.

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I'm like, well, and that's been
the trajectory that I think, I'm

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not going to say the entire
space is beyond, but the theorem

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has made so much of this
possible and that is all still

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there and it's undergone
metamorphosis over the last few

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years.
Do I have this right from an

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outsider's view, or is there a
lot more going on behind the

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scenes within the community?
Right?

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Within the community, there has
been, I think a lot of soul

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searching and there has been a
lot of what is our North Star,

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what are we aiming for?
And I think there's been a lot

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of arguing to be perfectly
honest.

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I think it's really healthy
because what you're actually

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seeing practically coming out of
that are real innovations and

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real things that are happening.
Take even like this 24 hour

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period, right?
We have the Pectra upgrade going

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live in about an hour, huge
amounts of innovations in there,

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everything from inclusion lists
to like Eips for account

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abstraction period.
Us like really pushing Ethereum

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forward.
Yesterday there was an

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announcement from Flashbots and
Beaver build, that Beaver build

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who built something like 40% of
Ethereum blocks, they're moving

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over to Flashbots building it.
So they're decentralizing a lot

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of the building infrastructure,
removing a huge choke point for

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centralization.
Again, there's other

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technological innovations
happening all the time.

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So there's an argument to be
made, would there be that much

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technological innovation if
there wasn't this kind of

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competition between different
perspectives, if there wasn't

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the lack of complacency that we
have?

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Maybe not, you know, So I think
if there is really, like, making

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great strides all the time.
And when you see this amount of

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innovation happening, you know,
we're 10 years into the Etherium

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project.
I think it's like June 30th is

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the anniversary of the genesis
block.

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And 10 years later, it's still
going strong.

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It's still innovating.
It's still pushing the

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boundaries.
So the next 10 years, you know,

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00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,400
shows no signs of slowing down.
So yeah, in the long run, I

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think Ethereum is very, it's a
really good place.

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It's so crazy is that some of
the tendencies here are to think

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about any blockchain ecosystem,
any blockchain community as a

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centralized company, as a
centralized corporation.

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And the media and people in
general just will tend to look

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at that and say I'm looking at
that as if I would look at, OK,

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I'm hearing about stuff
happening in NVIDIA where I'm

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hearing about stuff happening in
Microsoft.

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00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,920
But it's not that it's
different.

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There is this intractable
tension between like

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decentralized polycentric
governance and then very

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centralized and efficient
system.

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Say for example, institutions
coming to Etherium, who do they

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talk to?
Do they talk to the EF?

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Do they talk to consensus?
Do they talk to Etherialize?

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You know, and like the the
governance of Etherium, I think,

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you know, is it's well, it can
always be improved.

255
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I think it has strikes a healthy
balance, but it can be quite

256
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opaque and it can be kind of
difficult to make decisions.

257
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,840
And yeah, that comes with the
territory when you have a really

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decentralized system.
It does, it does and you know

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the longer term view will be the
one that wins out on the

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consensus network state.
Digging into that a bit, can you

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00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,840
give us some insight as to how
you expect that to unfold?

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00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,360
There there are a couple of
different perspectives on it.

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The consensus network state aims
to be a sort of like connective

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tissue between companies,
collective communities who want

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to build an Ethereum.
So ultimately it's about

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empowering people that want to
build an Ethereum by providing

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tools and infrastructure that
consensus has developed over the

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years, as well as tapping into
the broad network that consensus

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has built over the years as
well.

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And it's important not to
understate the impact that

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consensus has traditionally had
on Ethereum.

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Consensus really did help to
build Ethereum in the early

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years and they the diaspora is
enormous.

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So it's really about tapping
into that network in a way that

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the participants can help to
support each other.

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So we are looking at various
different coordination tools for

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around using AI agents for
discovery, for networking to

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00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,160
kind of form this connective
tissue between the different

279
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organizations so that they can
provide support for each other.

280
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We're not the only ones thinking
about this.

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I think there are a number of
ecosystems that are kind of

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thinking similarly.
So I'm thinking in terms of like

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00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,920
Arbitrum recently started using
the nomenclature of building

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like a network state or a
network nation, thinking very

285
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,400
much along the same lines about
connecting kind of an Arbitrum

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00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,960
aligned entities with each
other.

287
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,760
I think Protocol Labs is another
example that have been arguably

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00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,160
pioneering this sort of network
of aligned entities.

289
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,760
So that's one aspect of the
consensus network state, but

290
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,560
it's also about making consensus
more porous.

291
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,160
I think Joe's vision was never
to be like a company.

292
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,160
It was to be like an ecosystem
that helped to support Ethereum.

293
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,360
And so giving people the ability
to join consensus, to join the

294
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,000
network and participate, you
know, with various other teams

295
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,320
and organizations is part of it
as well.

296
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,480
And so we're looking at various
different ways to do that.

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00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,760
But ultimately, it's about
empowering people to build an

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00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,640
Etherium.
And I suppose that's the

299
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,440
tagline, right?
The North Star?

300
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,760
And any insight as to kind of
connecting some of those dots,

301
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,840
right?
Like, so take my example and we

302
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,600
talked a bit about this before,
Simon, is that we've brought

303
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000
four classes through the Tech
Stars Web 3 Accelerator, 40

304
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,280
companies or projects that have
come through that.

305
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,800
We probably have another 60 that
have gone through other Tech

306
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,280
Stars programs in Web 3, and
then probably another 200 on top

307
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,360
of that would be considered to
be Web 3 adjacent.

308
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,520
So I can start with a 40 and
connect the dots between them,

309
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,440
between myself and Hugh McGurk,
who runs Techstars Web 3 program

310
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,080
with me, and then extend that
out a bit to the additional 60

311
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,920
beyond that.
But once you get beyond 100

312
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,040
projects or companies, that
becomes quite a bit of an

313
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,600
undertaking.
And it's almost like you said

314
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,200
that it's not about being that
central focal point, it's about

315
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,240
being the bridge.
And it's about allowing these

316
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,760
interactions to take place and
allowing people to learn from

317
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,440
each other and build with each
other, perhaps, and taking

318
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,640
advantage of this diaspora, as
you mentioned.

319
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,080
I love that word, you know.
Can you talk about the types of

320
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,400
things to connect the
communities and to build the

321
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,280
bridges?
As you pointed out, like once

322
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,320
you kind of get beyond that
Dunbar number of like a hundred

323
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,280
150 people, it starts to kind of
breakdown and it gets very hard

324
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,720
to scale.
So what we're looking at is kind

325
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,520
of like how do you scale it
using technology?

326
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,840
So there's various different
things that we're looking at.

327
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,160
One of them is looking at
reputation.

328
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,720
I'm very lucky to have on my
team very experienced enterprise

329
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,800
architect who previously worked
for Madamask building out a

330
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,280
reputation technology layer for
the distribution of snaps.

331
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,960
And so they stood up a prototype
which worked really well and

332
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,839
allowed people to just list
snaps without any gatekeeper,

333
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,599
but in a way that was safe for
people to decide whether or not

334
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:15,839
to install them.
You're right.

335
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,480
And so this was based on this
kind of peer-to-peer subjective

336
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,720
reputation system.
And we're bringing that forward

337
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,040
and developing it further to try
to like scale the introductions

338
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,280
and discoverability and
networking features.

339
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,240
You know, because it gets very
difficult when like you need an

340
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,760
introduction to somebody, you
have to find the person who

341
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,360
knows the person, you know, it
doesn't scale very well.

342
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:38,880
So we, that's one approach we're
taking.

343
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,760
Another approach is we are
thinking about agreements and

344
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,640
going back to first principles
and trying to imagine how

345
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,680
agreements are made between
people and between

346
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,520
organizations.
You know, when you look at Web 3

347
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,000
right now, you've got incredible
innovation.

348
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,440
But to get anything off the
ground, like you still need to

349
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,920
go back to lawyers, right?
90% of agreements involve legal

350
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,600
professionals and ink on paper
and those, the legal profession,

351
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,320
you know, maybe it's bread and
butter is like understanding how

352
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,840
these agreements work,
understanding the workflows,

353
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,320
having this kind of like arsenal
of workflows that they

354
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,640
understand really well.
And that's fine.

355
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,680
But we're thinking about how
this intermediation of Web 3 and

356
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,480
crypto can be applied to just
agreements so that people can

357
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,600
make agreements between each
other really easily without

358
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,880
centralized gatekeepers in a way
that they can just like make the

359
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,320
agreement and then get to work
and build.

360
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,520
So one of the first things we
did was we are have been doing a

361
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,760
lot of work with the so ball
team, who are kind of legendary

362
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,720
in the DAS space.
They've been working in the DAS

363
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,080
space for about like 20 since
2017.

364
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,800
And this year they built a novel
agreements protocol that we've

365
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,280
just launched.
It's at signet dot build.

366
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,000
And so this agreement protocol
is like, how do we make this

367
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,840
really efficient, really simple,
really easy for developers to

368
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,440
create agreements?
How do we create agreements so

369
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,520
that people know like which one
is actually robust and

370
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,720
trustworthy, has been battle
tested in the real world again,

371
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,160
back to the reputation system.
And then really efficiently get

372
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,120
to work and solve a lot of the
problems that, you know, most

373
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,280
founders and builders don't even
realize that they're going to

374
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,320
encounter when they said we feel
that will help to scale the kind

375
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,200
of networking and connections
between people.

376
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,720
One of the concepts I've been
working on recently as well,

377
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,640
Simon, is this, you know,
building and scaling Web 3 by

378
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,280
having this connective tissue
back to Web 2 and having the Web

379
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,280
2 champions and leaders out
there have already embraced

380
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,040
where we're going with Web 3 and
saying yes, there are strong

381
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,680
elements that they need to adopt
and bring into their business.

382
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,280
We're going to have this gap for
a while.

383
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,200
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm glad that you brought up

384
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,800
like web two companies, right,
because again, through CNS and

385
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,960
the wider ecosystem, I think is
starting to Orient toward how do

386
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,760
we make Ethereum relevant in
people's everyday lives.

387
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,520
And I was actually very
heartened to seek this statement

388
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,920
from Aya and Vitalik recently
from the ES saying that the twin

389
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,480
goals of the EF like one of them
is about the usage of Ethereum

390
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,800
and the other one is about like
improving the maintaining the

391
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,440
decentralization.
But with regards to the usage of

392
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,880
Ethereum, they stated that the
primary goal was to make

393
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,120
Ethereum.
Useful such that people

394
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,360
everywhere benefited directly
from it and directly as opposed

395
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:30,240
to, you know, indirectly via
their institutions that they may

396
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,080
have their mortgage or their
loan or their pension or

397
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,160
whatever.
Instead of institutions adopting

398
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,920
Ethereum and then people
indirectly adopting Ethereum,

399
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,680
it's like directly in people's
lives in terms of community

400
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,600
initiatives, crowdfunding,
lending, payment, invoicing, et

401
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,760
cetera.
So like, these use cases are

402
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:49,920
incredibly important to the
future of Etherium.

403
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,480
Otherwise, like, what was it all
for?

404
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,600
But in order to get there,
there's a lot of work to be

405
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,120
done.
And I think, you know, this

406
00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,080
agreement is a perfect example
in terms of like what founders

407
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,640
need to do to get off the
ground, in terms of like a

408
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,520
corporation, in terms of like
billing invoices, in terms of

409
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,200
like creating agreements with
other organizations, agreements

410
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,280
between the different members,
managing the cap table, it just

411
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,760
goes on and on.
And all of that is currently,

412
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,440
you know, behind legal
professionals who really

413
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,200
understand where the gotchas
are.

414
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,200
So I think going to ChatGPT
isn't enough.

415
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,800
You know, you need complex
workflows.

416
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,200
There is like the way we
actually looked at agreements.

417
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,280
When we actually got into the
details, we realized, well,

418
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,720
actually Victoria in Sobel,
who's very exceptional engineer,

419
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,040
realized that all agreements are
basically this deterministic

420
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,720
finite state machine that has
all of these conditional

421
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,880
branches and stuff.
And it's basically like an

422
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,200
arcane form of coding, right?
So in that respect, there is a

423
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,200
way to actually simplify the
whole process using technology

424
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,640
and make it much more efficient
and much more accessible for

425
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,640
people.
Oh yeah, I worked with the

426
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,880
startup years ago who was like,
we need to take legal documents,

427
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,720
put them into the top of the
machine and out the bottom of

428
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,880
the Sheen becomes plain English
language that people can

429
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,720
understand.
It's awesome to hear about the

430
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,640
momentum that that you're
driving on this because it's

431
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200
well needed.
You mentioned, yes, the Etherium

432
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,680
Foundation, and obviously
there's the theorem community

433
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,480
and the governance around that.
There's the Etherium Foundation

434
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,320
and consensus.
Your positioning within all

435
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,760
that.
Obviously you're coming at this

436
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,320
from a consensus perspective
with consensus network state,

437
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,960
but how do you then connect the
dots with the Ethereum

438
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,280
Foundation and the wider
Ethereum governance community?

439
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,360
Yeah, that's an interesting
question, especially in, you

440
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:43,360
know, against the backdrop of
kind of the reform that we've

441
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,560
seen in the Ethereum Foundation.
And now we have these two very

442
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,360
talented directors that are
leading the EF.

443
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,440
And I've worked with Thomas in
in in the past and he is, you

444
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,360
know, exceptional individual.
You also have the emergence of

445
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:01,080
other organizations that are
maybe like have more specific

446
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,480
concerns.
So you have like for example, a

447
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,240
serialized that are more have a
more institutional focus and

448
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,120
maybe more of a marketing focus
than the EF who seem to be, you

449
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:15,120
know, looking more towards the
research kind of end of things.

450
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,120
You have organizations like the
PBS Foundation as well that are

451
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,720
taking on very specific kind of
concerns such as like out of

452
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,720
protocol innovations research
around PBS.

453
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:27,480
They recently took over the
maintenance of Nevada Boost,

454
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,480
which like 90% of Ethereum
transactions go through.

455
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,480
And then you're seeing things
like fabric, which is like all

456
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,160
of the, you know, rollouts and
L2's coming together to figure

457
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,520
out how to reduce fragmentation
and work toward more

458
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,760
interoperability.
And so this seems to be painting

459
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,120
a picture of a more sort of like
Poly centric governance within

460
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,240
the Etherium ecosystem, which is
good.

461
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,600
It also presents its own
challenges, you know, in terms

462
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,840
of coordination, in terms of
like marketing and branding for

463
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,680
Ethereum as a whole.
But I think everyone is

464
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,000
cognizant of that.
So I think that's not

465
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,280
insurmountable.
Consensus itself, you know, has

466
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,000
a role to play.
Traditionally, consensus has had

467
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,520
a huge impact on Ethereum.
It was one of the first

468
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,520
companies created to support the
Ethereum ecosystem and had a

469
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,360
huge outsized impact.
And you know, 10 years into the

470
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,160
Ethereum Project, I think
consensus has a pivotal role to

471
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,520
play going forward.
Consensus network state

472
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,600
specifically has a very strong
focus on builders and founders

473
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:28,040
who want to build on Ethereum
and innovate in Ethereum in a

474
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,600
way that makes it, as I said,
you know, relevant to people's

475
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,480
everyday lives.
So a lot of our focus on this

476
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,120
kind of network state and
creating a network of

477
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:38,800
individuals and teams that
support each other and have this

478
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,920
like tightly knit network that's
easy to navigate and it's very

479
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,880
accessible.
That's part of making Ethereum

480
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,280
relevant.
So we may not be the only one

481
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,400
addressing that concern, but
it's certainly something that

482
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,480
we're going to take a role in
going forward.

483
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,920
That's not to say that the names
that I've mentioned are the only

484
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,440
people who are contributing to
Ethereum.

485
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,720
There are there are a huge
number of teams that are all

486
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,240
rowing in the same direction.
OK, good.

487
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,720
One of the other things I've
been thinking about, you know, I

488
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,800
mentioned Web two, you mentioned
Web 2 and I'm going to mention

489
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,160
again, particularly in Fintech
in that one of the most exciting

490
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,520
things for me back in reading
the Ethereum white paper way

491
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,000
back when it was the concept of
stable coins and seeing how

492
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,280
important that has become in the
growth of blockchain.

493
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,400
And Web 3 and it particularly
over the last probably two to

494
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,320
three years that been a lot more
focus on that.

495
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,680
And you can look at the whole
traditional finance industry,

496
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,440
you can look at credit card
networks, you can look at

497
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,200
institutional banking, you can
look at retail banking, people's

498
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,760
financial lives, looking at what
fintechs have been doing over

499
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,080
the last 15 years to basically
put a new skin on top of an old

500
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,360
banking system.
And that has brought us forward

501
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,720
considerably.
I much more enjoy using Revolute

502
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,480
than I do using a Bank of
Ireland app, right?

503
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,520
You know, 110%.
A number of the conversations

504
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,080
I've been having recently,
Simon, is about connecting Web

505
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,880
2, connecting traditional
finance into stablecoin

506
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,040
processes, into stablecoin
networks.

507
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,560
And we see a number of the big
names out there that are working

508
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,800
on this as well with MasterCard,
with Visa, with Circle, with

509
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,040
Ripple, that we're all working
on this.

510
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:24,280
I've got this thought that if I
am a three to four to five year

511
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,840
old fintech startup and seeing
the writing on the wall, if I'm

512
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,960
going to be doing anything in
terms of putting payment flows

513
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,480
in the hands of consumers and or
enterprise, whether that's SM,

514
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,240
ES or institutions, I need to
have a consideration in there

515
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,880
for connecting to stable coin
flows.

516
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,960
If I am looking to grow an
ecosystem, A blockchain

517
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,240
ecosystem, looking to reach out
to those that are in the web to

518
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,000
space and it doesn't just have
to be fintech.

519
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,720
There's a number of other use
cases here that are applicable

520
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,040
where the natural stack
selection that you end up doing

521
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,840
when you're building something
or you're perhaps looking at how

522
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,720
do we scale this at the Series A
level that I'm going to look to

523
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,240
a blockchain ecosystem, look to
building on blockchain, start

524
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,560
connecting with some of these
alternative payment mechanism

525
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,000
and alternative payment flows
that have come to bear over the

526
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,800
last number of years.
In a roundabout way.

527
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,000
The question is when you're
looking at consensus network

528
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,880
state and thinking about that
and thinking about bringing in

529
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,120
new entrance into the community,
are there specific pockets that

530
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,440
you're looking at in Web 2 that
you think are going to be

531
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,680
relevant and that we're an
outreach may be helpful there?

532
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,520
In my team's remit, we're
probably not looking, we're not

533
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,800
probably not at that stage yet.
Like, we're still building out

534
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,120
the core primitives.
And broadly speaking, what we're

535
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:45,800
doing is breaking things down
into two very broad buckets.

536
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Like 1 is capital formation.
The other one is like labor

537
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,680
provision, which is essentially
like connecting people so they

538
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,480
can exchange goods and services
and stuff like that.

539
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,000
And capital allocation, which is
also like a huge area that just

540
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,840
has untold friction as a massive
barrier to entry for people who

541
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,200
want to build.
And so like, those are the two

542
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,360
kind of things that we're
looking at.

543
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,200
Yeah.
Moving beyond that, we're still

544
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,520
in the exploration phase.
This isn't me talking about

545
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,160
consensus.
This is talking literally about

546
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,440
my team.
I think consensus is, you know,

547
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720
has a lot of conversations with
various different institutions,

548
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,560
which does touch upon
stablecoin.

549
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,120
How we can, you know, leverage
statement coil for payments and

550
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:25,280
also for yield?
1 interesting initiative

551
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,760
recently has been the launch of
the Metamask card, which has

552
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,960
caused a lot of excitement and
which I say it is pretty cool.

553
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,280
So you can like put a stable
coin directly on your address on

554
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,240
linear and then you can just
spend it in the shop.

555
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,800
What's cool is the rewards that
back it as well.

556
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,880
So I think you know, the rewards
that you would get on say like a

557
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,120
Visa credit card can be kind of
cool, especially if you manage

558
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,040
them properly.
But what you can do in a

559
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,040
Metamask card where you have the
hold of web three out there is

560
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,200
even more cool.
And so I think that's a huge

561
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,040
space for innovation.
And again, it bridges the gap

562
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,400
between Web 2 and Web 3.
Where it goes from there.

563
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,080
I can only speculate about it,
but I can start to see how these

564
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,240
old kind of interbank networks
that have the merchant bank and

565
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,480
the acquiring bank and a whole
bunch of different connections

566
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,200
between them, a lot of those
banks now will start going,

567
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,000
well, you know what, I could use
stablecoin yields and I can

568
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,960
bypass all of these and I can
bypass all their fees.

569
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,280
And if I do it properly, I can
actually earn yield on my stable

570
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,520
coin reserves.
Why am I not doing this?

571
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,120
And so for the user at the end,
like you're in the shops, you're

572
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,120
paying with your debit card or
credit card.

573
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,000
But behind the scenes,
infrastructure is slowly moving

574
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,360
on to web rails.
And eventually, I hope my dream

575
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,320
would be that a point of sale
system you present your credit

576
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,280
card, it will just do a check to
see if there's a Ethereum

577
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,840
address associated with that
credit card number and just do a

578
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,440
stable coin, but like an on
chain payment from A to B and

579
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,360
that would be cool.
Yeah, no, I see that happening.

580
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,120
That's where this is all going.
And it's amazing that you're

581
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,240
kind of dropping in some little
hints of incentivization there,

582
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,440
which is where this all comes
back to, right, Which is how do

583
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,480
you get the users on board?
You provide them with a better

584
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,960
mechanism, you provide them with
a better point system, for

585
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,320
example, that they can do more
with.

586
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,640
You know, and I myself just, I
mentioned Revolute before, but I

587
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,480
started using that a lot more
because they don't have the Rev

588
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,720
points where for every two euro
that I spend, I get one Rev

589
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840
point.
And so, and you need to use that

590
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,320
through either Apple Pay or by
using a card.

591
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,840
You can't just, you know, send
money out of your account.

592
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,160
The Rev points that I'm
accumulating now will allow me

593
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,440
to upgrade to business class on
Aer Lingus when I fly back from

594
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,840
New York in June, for example.
Yeah, I mean, so that's a really

595
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,200
good example.
So you mentioned how like using

596
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,000
your ref points that you
acquired just through like doing

597
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,240
your shopping with your Revolute
card allowed you to upgrade, you

598
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:49,560
know, your seat.
That's kind of cool.

599
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,520
We can't argue with that.
Imagine what you can do with the

600
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,240
entire web, 3D5 Lego,
permissionless innovation and

601
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,200
composability.
Like you can do amazing things.

602
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,960
And so imagine what sort of
points and what sort of rewards

603
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,800
you can unlock, especially when
you think about like what people

604
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,080
have been doing, you know, the
kind of like rewards that people

605
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520
have been getting.
Oh yeah, Unchained transactions.

606
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,400
Link that up now to just your
everyday spending.

607
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,120
And I think that's a pretty
compelling offering.

608
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,840
So if I can kind of like
extrapolate that into like a

609
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,720
much more speculative long term
kind of imaginary future like

610
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,760
you, you mentioned like Revolu,
right?

611
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,840
And I think what's part of what
has made Revolu so successful is

612
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,760
it's a drive for financial
privacy where you open the

613
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,360
Revolu app and you have
everything you need.

614
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,080
You want to take a loan, you get
a loan.

615
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,200
If you need travel insurance,
you can get travel insurance.

616
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,920
If you need to like open a
savings account, investment

617
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,040
account, you can access crypto,
etcetera, etcetera.

618
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,120
And so it's fantastic from a
user's perspective.

619
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,960
So I think that's sort of like
where Ethereum needs to go.

620
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,080
We need to start thinking more
from a product perspective and

621
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,760
like how do we actually make
this applicable and relevant and

622
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,000
useful to people.
So instead of opening up a

623
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,560
wallet and just having like Defy
and a list of Daps or NFTS and a

624
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
list of different stuff, you
know, it's just like, how do we

625
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,920
think about opening up a DAP and
get a loan, access insurance,

626
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,120
open a savings and investment
account.

627
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,600
And then from there you can kind
of explore the options, but like

628
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,840
making it actually relevant and
then from there moving forward

629
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,320
to things that people don't even
realize are possible.

630
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,760
So like manage my local
community currency, like

631
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,040
community currencies should be
far more ubiquitous than they

632
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,520
are.
How do I enter like rotating

633
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,800
savings account or a rotating
labor account?

634
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,520
How do I, you know, there we can
move forward into like what web

635
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,760
three can really unlock at a
local level?

636
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,000
And I think that's really
exciting.

637
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,160
Again, it's sort of speculative
and long term and more in the

638
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,040
future, but it is an exciting
North Star to follow.

639
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,560
It is and it's patterns and it's
seeing what's happening with

640
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,680
stable coins and seeing what the
possibilities are.

641
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,400
And the keyword you mentioned
there is composability and that

642
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,120
you can build on top of what
came before in the Lego blocks.

643
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,640
And what I was going to say is,
well, Simon, is that from the

644
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,960
perspective of product building
and that product mindset, that's

645
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,880
what consensus is there for,
right?

646
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,760
You're in the right seat to
drive this.

647
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,600
Yeah, I think we are.
I think that, you know,

648
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,400
consensus is first of all like
still very focused on supporting

649
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,720
Ethereum.
Like I think the PECTRA upgrade,

650
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,400
what's it going live now in like
1020 minutes or something, we

651
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,960
had like 35 people working on
that, you know, so we're still

652
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,560
very focused on the
infrastructure itself.

653
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,640
But in terms of the actual like
lowering the barrier of entry to

654
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,800
actually people using that
infrastructure, I think that's

655
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,960
what we're going to be focused a
lot on over the next, you know,

656
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,360
the next decade.
And maybe it's not directly,

657
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,120
maybe it's indirectly through
actually supporting builders and

658
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,920
founders so that they can build
the apps that are relevant to

659
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,160
people.
But I think that is definitely

660
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,240
something that we will renew our
focus on for sure.

661
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,480
Good.
And what's the best way for

662
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,960
people to learn more about the
Consensus Network state?

663
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,000
The best way is to follow the
consensus account or follow my

664
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,560
account probably for the most up
to date information.

665
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,200
We will be making some
announcements over the next few

666
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,000
months.
The agreement protocol, which is

667
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,159
really exciting if you're into
the more technical side of

668
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,320
things, has gone live and we'll
be doing some marketing and

669
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,280
announcements and some Twitter
Spaces and stuff.

670
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,320
So follow me For more
information there.

671
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:25,040
And if you are my founder or you
are an investor or you are

672
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:26,600
working in the space, please get
in touch.

673
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,760
Just reach out to me directly
and I'd be absolutely lovely to

674
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,199
talk to you.
So yeah, reach out directly to

675
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,520
me.
We can have a conversation.

676
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,360
OK.
And I'll share all your details

677
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,679
in the show now to everybody has
them.

678
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,760
The last question that I asked
on this podcast, Simon, that I

679
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,080
didn't ask you the first time
around because we're taking more

680
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,080
of a news review type approach
to our conversation the first

681
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,120
time.
But when I do get into these

682
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,000
types of interviews of folks, I
do say, listen, the last

683
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,920
question is what is one thing
that people would not expect to

684
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,560
know about you?
What people would not expect to

685
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,920
know about me.
So there's a few things that

686
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,360
people are often surprised by
when it comes up in

687
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,280
conversation.
So one of them is that actually

688
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,640
my background is not originally
computer science or technology

689
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,360
at all.
I was actually, my training was

690
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,320
in Chinese medicine.
And so originally I was in

691
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,960
specializing in acupuncture and
other complementary therapies.

692
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,360
And I had a clinic in Dublin, I
trained in Beijing.

693
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,440
And that's what my passion was.
I loved it.

694
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,480
Yeah, until the, you know, the
GFC, the global financial crisis

695
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,960
in 2008.
So most of my clients were

696
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,360
actually publicly funded by the
health service and stuff.

697
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,120
So complementary therapies and
acupuncture was like the first

698
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,960
thing they could.
So that really harmed my

699
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,440
business.
And then it was just difficult

700
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,920
to get business off the ground.
And I think I started kind of

701
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,120
going back to my other passion,
which was technology.

702
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,440
It's interesting.
I think the global financial

703
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,960
crisis had such a huge effect on
me that I'm only starting to

704
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,440
realize it now.
And it's a big reason why I'm in

705
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,760
crypto because I saw like, you
know, the ugly side of how the

706
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,120
global financial system works.
So combining my passion with

707
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,360
technology with, you know, the,
the personal impact that had at

708
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,440
the time was probably what
brought me here today.

709
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,520
So that's, I think one thing
that surprises people though.

710
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,400
And the other thing that has
surprises people is when they

711
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,280
find out that I live in rural
island, they're like, why do you

712
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,400
live at rural Ireland?
Why wouldn't?

713
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,400
You.
Yeah, Yeah.

714
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,480
I mean, it's very, it's
beautiful in the summer and it's

715
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,280
peaceful and it's very quiet.
It's a big grim in the winter.

716
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,040
I'll give you time.
It's fine, It's fine it.

717
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,600
I absolutely love everything
about it.

718
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,040
So even, yes, the grim winters,
the rain, the unexpected Four

719
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,720
Seasons in one day that you get
here in Ireland, but it's people

720
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,440
do ask me from time to time why
I live here and I that's what I

721
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,640
tell them.
I'm like, why wouldn't you want

722
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,040
to live here, you know?
So, but listen, Simon, it's been

723
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,760
a fantastic chat.
Great having you back on the

724
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,200
show.
Thank you so much.

725
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,400
We'll link all the details that
I mentioned in the show notes

726
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,040
that our listeners can follow on
and get in touch with you.

727
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,200
So thank you.
Always a pleasure Pete, thanks

728
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,560
for having me on.
That does it for this week

729
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:06,920
folks.
Thanks to Simon Brown for

730
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000
opening up his mind to help us
figure out why he does what he

731
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,520
does.
Check out the show notes on

732
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,800
Money Never sleeps dot IE for
all the relevant links to learn

733
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,880
more about Simon and consensus.
If you like what you heard,

734
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,040
please leave us a rating and or
review on Spotify, Apple or on

735
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,360
Money Never sleeps dot IE slash
rate.

736
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,200
Thanks to Conan Brophy from
Createside for mixing and

737
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,040
editing this episode.
Conan is an excellent media man

738
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,360
to work with on your own
podcast.

739
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,160
As for me, I'm an early stage
startup investor in the next

740
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,600
version of the Internet and I
lead the Techstars Web 3

741
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,400
accelerator.
There are plenty of links in the

742
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,040
show notes on money never sleeps
that IE on how to get in touch,

743
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,600
so don't hesitate to reach out.
Finally, till next time, thanks

744
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:42,720
for listening.
See you money.

745
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:44,880
Never sleeps, pal.