184: In da Club | Staxe | Luis Martinez and Martin Liebrich

0:11 Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend, and this is money, never sleeps. We look inside the minds of entrepreneurs and at crossover of startups, Enterprise Finance, technology and Life. As We Know It, This episode of money. Never sleeps is sponsored by Phillip Lee, one of our Islands fastest growing corporate law firms and expert advisors at the heart of the Dublin and London startup fintech and crypto key. Immunities on the show this week. We've got I'm Luis Martinez and I'm founder and CEO at steaks and I'm marking need a co-founder and CTO steaks. Steaks is enabling music and creative production, economies on web 3 by allowing you to share in the success of creative Productions through investing in artists and events or cause that you believe in steaks are the seventh of the founding teams forming the launch will wed 3 techstars accelerator class of 2020 to we've got on the show over the next few months.

1:00 It's it is episode. I talked to Louis and Martin about Louis's pursuit of is create a passion to brought him and Martin together what Stakes is and how it works. How creative Productions are like micro startups blockchain is a social coordination tool, the big vision for steaks, all right, here on money, never sleeps. So guys listen, I'm going to start this with a little story that my kids are familiar. Now, with Mario Palma, who's one of the NF? Tees. Available on the stakes platform right now and I was playing him. The other morning on a Saturday over breakfast. Wonderful somewhat traditional Spanish music in the background in the like, Dad. What the hell is this?

1:45 So I'm holding the story. And I said, listen guys were making money by listening to this Like okay yeah absolutely play at how much we going to make and I left it there right? Because you know it was it was a good way to get started but listen Lewis and Martin awesome to have you both on the show. Thanks so much for joining. Why don't we get started and dive right into it and Louise just maybe cheer your back story and how you got to this point and then we'll do the same with Martin. Yeah. Sounds good Pete and thanks so much for bringing us in. It's a pleasure to you and an honor to be in money. Never sleeps been following the rest of the cohorts and learning much from all All your guests and and collaborators here. So a bit about my background. I come from the finance world.

2:27 I started off and my very early years when I was some something like 1560. My first incursion into Tech was actually through music. I began having this dream of being able to play around with music and synthesizers I had a strong interest in what, you know, Hardware Tech could do to bending sounds things like oscillators, and just playing With the new technology features that allow this to just band sounds and play with them. And that was my first interaction with tech back. Then, I got into DJ's cool, actually, because of that, I started learning how to use and manipulate the sounds, but sometime around a long, the road, my family came in, my family is a bit traditional, I'm from Mexico and the as you can imagine you know the typical generation would is it before Generation X?

3:16 What is it? The Baby Boomers, is it? Yeah. Yeah. The Boomers, right? Yeah. Where's yeah. Yeah. Did the traditional Baby Boomers way of looking at what your career should be? Was, you know, you needed me to become study Finance, law or medicine, right? That's both go study, hard, work, hard, build a career and definitely being a DJ and bend in sounds was not part of that, right? So had to yeah, kind of readapt my, my dreams and my vision of, what would be my career. I started studying Finance got into very early life and my career into the trading rooms. I asked As a Trader. You know, my one of one of my Inspirations back then which is why it's such a pleasure to be money.

3:56 Never sleeps was like yeah you know Wall Street the movie Gordon Gekko ads, what it would be like to be in Bloom Wall Street back in the 90s, right? Eight 80s, 90s was kind of the inspiration behind it. So I got into the trading desks for a few years traded Equity options, tits. Arbitrage used to do proper Terry trading for a couple of Brokers and weíll learn A lot from there. Yes, it was. There was a moment along my career that I sorry having much interest into getting into building, something of my own as we always do and then it was sometime around 2017 when I started venturing into the crypto space. So start learning about programmable money was what really caught my eye programmable money with something so interesting.

4:43 And I remember being in the trading desk and looking at at the libertarian side of what you could do with programmable money and at the same time, In at the trading desk being limited we had we actually had more people from the compliance desk, you know, over watching us then Traders and so it was like okay libertarian is out there and crypto here. We're yeah Behind these four walls and I need to do something about it. So that got me into the rabbit hole and started I remember back then it was 2017. Started mining some. 'If back at 32 started the, you know, was my first, let's say interaction with crypto, when each was 32, U.s. dollars too bad.

5:23 I had to spend on all of my eith about mind, even paying the electricity until it was no longer back. So yeah, then I realized the next big, not profitable thing or the nest interesting thing to do would be to actually build build, especially, open tokenized structures. Tokenization was kind of my biggest interest, and then connected that with my long-standing passion for music and for the crew, the creative industry, ask my First incursion into the space. I mean, I've done some promotion in the past and at done some gigs, small gigs kind of putting these together, but there was a lightbulb moment. One day when I was one of my friends is a booking manager and we have everything in place to put a gig together.

6:06 So they had a very good artist. We had most of the community, that's and the fans that love this heart is so he would bring it him in, he had the date, ready? And then, we put it in some of our w at chats, and whatever we use Facebook. I think it was Facebook chats back then. At and we just started testing the water. And before we knew it, we had something like, I don't know, 200 people, which was the entire capacity of that we can find for a venue back then, sold out like it. People were throwing the money out us. I'll buy this ticket right now. Went are the tickets coming out and they were missing one piece. Putting the venue in and we started looking for venues. And we can find the venue in the venue wanted and up. Yeah, just enough from payments. So they would give us a date and then you have this chicken and egg problem.

6:48 Right? Okay. We have the tickets Soul basically or Semi sold, we have very high chance of not, it was going to be profitable, no matter what we did, we knew that we had the artists ready, we have the venue ready, but the venue would not give us the date, unless we gave him the money for his, but we cannot sell tickets or print any anything on the tickets, even if we didn't have the artist. So you see where we're going here and that count, that was a lightbulb moment. When we said, okay, we need to find a way to coordinate Capital, so that this doesn't these gigs happen. These gigs. Don't just end up, you know, ya out there because we were missing money up front. And it was just didn't make sense to us, that it couldn't be coordinated. So we started that with be live, was that the project behind it and that has that has evolved since then, until now until what we call steaks awesome, it's awesome though. I love the, the rebellious nature of you being pushed into a career in finance after dabbling in music and then saying, you know I'm going back right? And it's like he got it.

7:51 Your passion. You gotta just you gotta go for it and and it's awesome. I love the way you told that story about, you know, not being able to get the financing right. And it's not even not being able to get the financing. It's that it's that upfront payment, you can't get a date and you can't print tickets. You can talking about the gig, right? And the timing, right? Like money and timing or something. Some two things that typically don't come in hand, right? And that was where it y, you know, liquidity sourcing and defy, wet 3 becomes irrelevant. Lee cool. And Martin maybe bring us up to speed with your back story and how you got to this point and met Lewis as well? Yeah, yeah. I'd love to see. Tli needs to have a techie story basically.

8:31 So I done my first, your kid a logic, and when I was 10 years old was a c64 and started dabbling around with it back, then heated client to understand quite a bit to give it to you. The started programming it, that was great. It's always wanted to do some games. Never really got for make most of your Paul's I got hung up all the, all the all the arcs because I just cannot think so. But and I kept using computers through through high school and college, then and then I pulled about what should I studying their diversity. I didn't go quarter for a computer science, right for the bat. But then really thinking about all the different possibility that bought. This is the only thing I can really see myself still doing it 20 years time because it's so fast. Evolving even back today.

9:20 I spent a couple of years then studying can't say I was a brilliant student but still I'll be eventually. I got out of it, study dedicate his organization Switzerland still today. And that was basically right around 98. We're lighting the pursed internet the web craze started to happen. So I mean, I remember having had my first email login to the early nineties, friends asking me. Or what he, what do you need this for? I mean about it. So, I got out, I got a contract with with the bank. Everything didn't money.

10:01 It was it around of the back, one and a half year. I was, I was only good money, but I had the feeling like, I have no clue what the hell I'm doing here. And how, how long can this, how long can is good? Good run last. So that would be looking for something else and as it happens I like Mitchell made a friend of mine from Um, football. And at the bar 3:00 in the morning, and he said, like, yeah, and what the quote is, IT consulting company? That could be interesting for you, why don't you check it out? So I went to check it out. Listen to them, interviewed with them. Hold it was great. That was catered Knology partners and I thought, yeah, this is the place where I can learn something. I'll stay two to three years.

10:41 It's a good 15 years later, we sold the company. That's what happens. Uh, so so that. Yeah, that always happens. I stuck around for a bit longer. But I find out this was not necessarily the place. I wanted to be so I told my in my bosses I'll do on a sabbatical but I don't think I'm coming back, I'll do that. It's a traveling of spending months in Israel which which is has been very interesting. And I spent like three months in New York in Miami which was which is actually the great I started to look into Cryptid. Honest, 2017. And everything was going crazy. I have known crypto for quite some time even just I Didn't really get into it, so I missed.

11:23 They think they already to Bull markets and I read about it. I, I found it very interesting and I was pretty sure back then because it's go to stay. This is not gonna go away anymore, and that's when I may lose. I went to this conference and encrypt O'Malley to, and they had this startup in or pitching. And and I was listening in on them and there is a couple of guys, I kinda interesting Stakes is one of them, but In the end. Yeah, well, I got talking to, to Louis that lie. In the idea in the beginning was just say, oh, I might invest some of the money I had left over from, from selling out, the, the other company.

12:03 But then over time, we found while we would complement each other quite well. So, so it became more than just an investment cool. And you know, before we get into steaks and what that is, and just thinking about that obviously, you know, Louis being a commercially geared. Eeo with good understanding of crypto, a passion for music all that clear, Martin great technology, background curiosity into crypto figuring things out the yin and the Yang seemed pretty clear. But is there anything else there that just makes it work between the two of you so far? Yeah, I think it's all about the design room.

12:44 What we really works together because this skill set can be complementary, but if you cannot find coordination of those ideas at the very high level and with, you know, in an efficient amount of amount of time, it still doesn't seem to capture the skill set, or the potential of the combined skill set. So, one thing that we, that has worked out really well from the beginning is, okay, let's bring ideas as to What's we want to tokenize the value, the utility behind such tokenization? And then a, you know, these at the design level have Martin bringing, why can and quite what cannot be done. And you know why? I like, because Martin is a realist, I'm much more of a dreamer.

13:27 So, therefore, you know, you can imagine how we Mash ideas in the table, and how it actually comes out as a much more. Yeah, I just landed realistic and feasible set of features heading to organizations Teachers at that, we come up with it's how we work. I get it. Yeah, I think this this difference fault of Personality that will think very helpful. The way these deceptive usually work is losses coming with some idea completely out of left field and I'm just rolling my eyes and say, look I'm not no way this is we cannot do this not ever and then and then we tongue we start approaching each other and then and usually comes out with it completely. No idea.

14:11 But something that I have come up with on my own and he would have come up or on his hand. Yeah, yeah, I've got people that I've had relationships with like like that in the past and it can be magical, be truly magical when you get that working. Listen, let's shift gears and move into steaks Louise, can you tell us about steaks? What it is and the source of your conviction, on why? It's the perfect thing for the two of you to be working on right now and obviously with the the team that You're growing as well, would sit, and chew. And shout out to sit and you as well. Yes, thanks Pete. So just in brief steaks what it is is a tokenization tool. We bring it creatives and their economies and enable them in what three mostly music economies. Yeah.

14:59 And what we do is we work with music rights, we work with royalties and we also work with live events from, you know, ticketing as as the main source of income. So when the Is for tokenization in our platform is finding those a creative acids that will produce future income in, you know, a determined amount of time, right? And that becomes a potential for tokenizing something today, which at the present value will signal an upside for whoever wants to purchase such a fragmented value of what we token. I so just to put it together. It's a Marketplace two-sided market place where we Supply acids from the creative space and then we have collectors and investors come and buy into those acids because they wish to it. Yeah, participate.

15:49 Her or share the success of their artists of their songs of their creatives, as well as having some unique interactions along the way. Very cool. I get it. Like I said at the beginning, you know, I bought one of the end of T's and you don't really think about this too much as a music fan, that okay, live music, which is where it all started, you know, back in the day it was just someone got up and performed. Wherever they were. But you know, in the in the current day and age, sound like a boomer, but I'm not MJ next. We've got a problem to solve their. You have a venue where people need to go. There's security around that venue. There is they're all different types of processes that need to be set up at that venue. You've got the tickets at need to be sold and that you want to turn a profit off of it.

16:32 This isn't just someone getting up and Performing if they could just do that. And everybody was independently wealthy than well, we wouldn't have a need for this, right? But you do need to finance. A production and that's, you know, being a live event and there's an upfront cost to that and then you sell tickets and hopefully the ticket sales and the revenue, you generate off of that. Is more than the cost of the production. And at sharing these prophets, amongst token holders is the big thing. Second thing with the with the music productions themselves. And what I bought Mario Palm has production of one of his singles that yeah, it does cost money to produce music, you have Studio cost, you have distribution costs, all that type of stuff. So but Want to actually sell that right now artist for the most part.

17:15 What is it? Something like there's 14 million artists on Spotify and you know, something tiny, tiny, tiny proportion of those actually make fifty thousand dollars or more. So there is passing back that Revenue to the artist, just for the music that they produce and they record they make available to the world. That is something that that needs to be done. And it sounds like that is one of the things that that you guys are attacking at precise. A thymine to DNA of the project is to to get the power or to empower better set the be creatives, whether it's a promoter behind the gig, whether it's the artists that's actually, you know, a spending the studio time to create his art and you said it, these guys are almost like tiny startups each one of their Productions because you need a need financing to for that studio time for their bass player. For example to you know, they need to invest in that in the video which is going to help them get the word out for what teaches creative.

18:11 Today and then market and yeah it's almost sounds like a micro starts up set up and they need financing in order to produce more and more often. Absolutely. Martin from you, I mean, from the technology perspective in getting this MVP built and out to the world what have been? Some of the key themes that you focused on when it comes to okay. Timing is everything. We've got to get this out, we've got to get it up and running from an architectural standpoint. What's been your Focus. Yeah, so so we we started looking into this, and Louise had a kind of prototype when we saw that the in when we when we got together and I said, we have we need to move fast and I was fully confident like kids do to me Deepak a smart contract at this point in time.

18:59 They were not only complicated in a good friend of mine, but if the former company as well, Tom and and together, we kind of had that fact decide together what we need. Front-end work, which been would be much harder, and it's all about making it easy for people to get into this face. So, so we contracted, we contacted the company to do this and and, and actually, by pure coincidence. I mean, again, it's looking specifically in Brazil because I had good experiences and I knew the prices vary cake, but the gods we need contracted Lyme disease to to have a first MVP and out we found out When the time was that all they have mr.

19:44 Certain, they convinced this to to use a certain technology stack that and did find about wasn't well compatible with the blockchain and Ernie so we got to throw it away and start. Again we went back and forth here when we started out with a let's say traditional web application with its own back end to things or watching saline to the smart contracts and the kind of worship we have a mistake basically either in the app and So or in the smart contract but the big the big hurdle I think is still Divya getting the people to use the to use rdap and to make it easy because our we're not the D5 protocol where the way have the indigenous and then they are all fine with this. We have Musical music lovers basically and they might have no clue about crypto and walnuts and all of these things and how do you need entities?

20:37 This is a front end and you are ux Design problem, much less than Parts technical. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And the whole process of in this word is being used so much lately, but abstracting the user away from the web, three current thing, right? And that everybody does focus on the current thing as opposed to where it could go as listen to the bank list podcast with Chris Dixon as well as Marc Andreessen from a 16. See the two of them were on the phone with the bank was guys And they were talking about the first laptop in 1983 and how it was kind of a joke, right? And talk about, you know, money never sleeps and Wall Street, Louis and seeing some that the old mobile phones that were depicted in that movie.

21:24 And, and the computers that people were using at the time. And looking at what we have now that first laptop in 1983, I guess it was something like 43 pounds. It was a suitcase that you had to Lug with you, like onto the airplane, for example, and it had a 4-inch screen. So where are we? We are right now in terms of the user experience of how you buy non fungible tokens that are linked to, you know, revenue streams from an artist that are linked that are a digital collectible that are perhaps, you know, something that you could also use to as an access to an event, all of these types of things experience to get that we do. There's some waited to go to abstract the user away from some of these finer details of the crypto space, but look at that 1983, laptop, and where we are now. Now, right, even look to where we got to in 10 years with laptops.

22:14 So you know, when you think about kind of the long-term Vision here when music productions and creative Productions, overall are financed in this way and that people can share in that and share in that freely, how big can this get? What's that going to look like? I mean, I think you said it Peter. This let's let's talk about the size of the industry, and we can just take one, let's say, music festivals and examples. We're starting to work with music festivals. We starting to create their nft collections for them, and we on tap the potential Mass Market that is behind the knees. I mean, just think about it Festival. Now you have five to ten thousand people are in some cases. Two hundred thousand for the big festivals. Audiences of that size already grouped and kind of put together for the same reason or identity, which is in our, a specific artist or a music Jenner and whatnot. And then what music has as Power and Light music specifically, is to group these people these audiences into it'll be like-minded happening such as showing up to the concerts, and you feel the energy there.

23:26 And we can talk about, you know, how all the experience economy. Side. But what we see as a big picture is if these audiences could be brought over to F3 and we're seeing that they want to be taken over to web 3. Then you have a critical mass to to address or to enable and there's so many things to do a behind that and you said it access bring them closer to their, to their artists. I having, you know, even the the the OG behind actually supporting an artist that nobody knew. About yet and we see some of these collectors. See, buying into music royalties. He went three as a, you know, Legacy investment where maybe today is not worth that much. But you know, think about you investing into maybe beat Paul McCartney and 70 years ago, when exactly, nope. I'm less than 70.

24:21 You are all when he was, you know, he was a young kid and before the Beatles and in for some reason you you tapped into into this nft, he was putting out. R think of, you know, it's a legacy that could be transformed and the people that are investing into his have this mindset. So we you know, there's many edges as to how we could put it together. But to answer your question is All about, we see blockchain as a social coordination tool and coordinating the activities of these big masses that we spoke about with nft. He's with tokens with the incentives that these bring has a very powerful case for the industry. And that's what we see. And there's even more to, it's where we, you know, we've been bringing over music rights over to what 3, we've been talking to, you know, existing protocols in this space and then even more interesting. just rock up where we are realizing that royalties. And these music rights are potentially unsold tickets. Can be collateral in wet 3 because the a get in there. They're productive assets, right? Which we should bring a real live cash flow in the future. So what does that mean?

25:31 For from the defy perspective is a these can be collateralized and then open a whole new range of offers and features to this create is that they had no idea they had access to and what you. And this includes Landing capabilities. He's even staking or having some kind of savings or passive income on their own art. And yeah, have using their own art as collateral for creating more and for financing future Productions, amongst many other. But we can even get into the institutional side of this, you know, private Equity firms. We know there's huge pride of private Equity firms in the sacred. A seven-figure range where they exclusively engage in investing in music catalogs, as they are investment pieces and it, you know, would be great.

26:13 Amazing. See how we could open the exposure of such portfolios in a tokenized manner so that they can you know, director are better Define the risk and the reward that they're looking for in such a space and I think that's what's coming next, that's what we are. Yeah, that's our big vision for the project into pulling in as many and consistent participants, including labels promoters in the space where we're talking two tickets at the ticket in companies and then they you know the value interaction amongst He's which right now is staggered. Non-standardized and wet 3 will probably make the change. I'm with you. It's fascinating. There's so many opportunities here that it's the financialization of everything. It's at once you can link a token to an actual real world thing.

27:00 And have that provenance to say that, yes, this is legitimately connected that it can be in your wallet. You could hold obviously crypto alongside what will become eventually Central Bank, digital currencies or CBD sees stable, Today your tickets to an event, your digital Collectibles, your favorite sports that are there, whether that be, you know, flat images, or those be videos. It could be a replay of. Hey, I got this n of T of this artist and that gave me special access or a special rights to get the, the raw video from the event. And I've got that built into my nft right of that of that, actual event that I went to and and obviously played a part in financing, the production of it, by buying the sin of T and Advant.

27:48 Hey everyone, this is Pete. Let me tell you about the folks at Phillip. Lee few years ago is that my first Venture Capital industry dinner in Dublin and honestly I felt a bit lost. I bumped into and Rita's Ali. One of the partners at Phillip Lee. He bought me a pint and introduced me to the team and they took me under their wing that take you under their wing approach has been what I've heard consistently from fintech. And crypto startups who I know have worked with Phillip, Lee and Dublin and London to help them wrap the right. Legal framework around their business fundraising and Regulatory needs and I can't recommend them enough. Get in touch with a team at Phillip Lee dot IE or on money, never sleeps. That IE /. Phillip Lee to learn more. Martin, from a technology perspective, the art of the possible needs to grow alongside the technology that's available to us that we can build on right now. At the same time, keeping in mind your product development roadmap and saying well if we're planning a year out for planning three months out, or six months out, this technology is moving so fast.

28:48 You're going to have these new tools at your fingertips that are evolving every three to six months. How do you keep Pace with all of this? So that, you know, Lois is left field. Ideas that are actually left field, isn't that far away? It's never that far away that you can that you can bring it all together from a tech perspective. How do you do that? The new person question? I mean, it's this, this is quite hard and I mean, like it also a lot of reading listening looking at, I mean, anything, that kind of gets thrown thrown at you, you need to have a like, or what they're doing and then and then there's a, something new is coming up and you need to dive in and you need to think But how could I, could I use this my friend Tom here as well.

29:30 Who's really the in delete engineer? And he sent me a picture on something like the say. This is probably weird, but I'm drinking whiskey. And I watching love something and solidity. So yeah, it's kind of bouncing clearly one could possibly look into these things and really reminds me of the first internet what where they were new things coming and you never could never keep out but for the good things, the good thing is now that the People want to the top much faster there. The left-field ideas, and absolutely, absolutely no and and thanks for reminding me that coding can be a spectator sport. But generally only when it's done in accompaniment with fine whiskey or any whiskey will do, right, bring it back to the Here. And Now guys, Louise first with you. What do you think the biggest challenge is for the rest of this year with steaks?

30:19 So I think yeah we're it's a good timing to throw out this question because we're right in the middle of the year, right? And that gives us a visibility to what's happening in the past and where we want to go in the future. So first the past and, and to build kind of the context as to what we think the challenges are our bet is that what will what happened to the art space in 2021? And, you know, whole adoption by creatives. And yeah, just I think across the board in any Industry in the arts space will be transferred to the music. So we now see music as an undervalued asset just because what threes here and just the way that you could look right now at Art and it's Finn I think widely yeah verified or validated that art and its scarcity and that liquid liquidity around what? Three just reprises the assets at a higher value. It does why has it not happened to to to music is a question? Hey, because we consume even more of it, I think, and it's it's just out there and the question D and our answer and to that is, well, it's still controlled by the by the bakery, less of the industry, and it's it in. What's best is the limit libertarian ideas of what three are pushing people to Once, in, to once it change, especially the creates, as we see, this creative lead movement, where people are having realizations libertarian realizations of what my You can be, you know, the

31:51 freedom that I can have with my money as an artist we're 3 and this this is this is the inflection point, the way we see it. So the challenge isn't right now to answer your question is making as many creatives and fans are aware of this opportunity and it's mostly an educational challenge. That means, evangelizing them and making them understand that you cannot just listen to music the way they. Yes, Spotify has told us or YouTube has sold as we should, but you can own your music, you can earn, you know, share the success of your Artists, you can walk with them along the way, share the air experience. They're at their exclusiveness or artists. You know, that sexiness and fun side of of Music, doesn't have to be labeled as an investment right back which is, I don't know, sometimes in the crypto World sounds like a boring word or something like means to to white color and as and if T's, which is what they've they've mostly adopted.

32:44 Now become as the bridge between these two worlds has such as a I can own. And generate income of what my passions, and I can do that before and we're in that point. So getting this message out to the people is our greatest challenge. They are, like I said, there's many, many masses Behind These audiences. Therefore, the opportunity is huge, but the real challenge is being very strategic as to how you bring them over and on board and its web three. And that's what I think is coming up. And we are. Yeah, preparing for that. I love it, I love it. No, it's great and the That's it, you build something amazing and then you need to get into people's hands and need to do that as quick as you can. So I hear that I hear that Martin from you at the biggest challenge looking forward for the rest of this year from what's in your lap, right?

33:31 So the first thing goes goes hand-in-hand with what what Louis said so we are looking into into really are hold you on ux, make it even more attractive, make it we're working with artists. It needs to look pretty good. It's in specifically and then yes. Hi. Do we, how do we extract the underlying technology away? So this is this is ongoing already talking with some, you are you expect agency as well? To help us on this as batik. Deanna dick on is, certainly the steak spoken. We're looking into it, we want to bring out the token and took it on its utility and all of this all of this needs to be coded obviously as well.

34:15 Yeah. And the final one for this year's probably the Gration with defy protocols, looking into some, some ways currently right now. All looking and that's the last one. I also looking at bigquery the future, I think were bringing in music words, whatever. I'm going to get springing in real-world affix to blockchain and I think this is still on quite an unsolved. Do this really cute centralized trustless currently you have to in many of these Does he still have to to to, to trust somebody that he will enforce some legal contract? How can you how can you improving? How can you make this really decentralized? And trustless, this is going to be an interesting question for the whole industry, going forward? Yeah, yeah.

35:06 And one thing I'm thinking is that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole here, like you said that, there's so much music out there and it is under valued at this stage and has been because there's so much of it out there. And, you know, when you're bringing real, And Assets in the digital space, you need to take inventory of all that first and taking inventory. Lets you separate the wheat from the chaff and really promote the good things that are out there and the things that well then you know, is still just a tiny Niche audience and let that be and it lets you do that. So, getting my head around this with you guys today has been fascinating, I could continue like this for another few hours with you guys, but we are running short on time. So why don't we move to the last question that we asked everybody on this podcast? And We'll start with you.

35:50 What is one thing that people wouldn't expect to know about you? Wow, that's a good one. Well, for me, it would be on the strong believer of metaphysics. Something that people wouldn't. Wow, right. Yeah. That the the financial or yeah, very logical mind behind wouldn't be expected this but yes, I am strongly either. I mean in what we can project in our minds, in the power of what they might have, the power of the Mind, the power of intention, love the Law of Attraction. All of this is very Read relevant. To me, I bring it into my daily practice through meditation, through through, through visualization. And this is really what I really has gotten me to where I am today and will continue to take me to the places where my, my dreams go so metaphysics.

36:34 I mean, it's, I think a Hidden Gem that everyone should discover on their own. Absolutely. No. And what I'd like you to do is send me the title of the best book that you've read about metaphysics, and we can share that with the audience. Yeah. Sounds good and bad and even even has some special of this realization practices that you could try. Which, I mean, they just take you to another level, you just sit back and wait, how they materialize and they come true, call me a dreamer but it's out there. I think it's there's metaphysics out there. Moving things around. Awesome. I love it. Martin. What about you which one thing that people wouldn't expect to know about you shape the? Yeah, all I thought about this one when we were with you guys in the from Sisters in Berlin and I was telling people, oh wait a minute, that's not, that's not true mean, I told this that the the guys that I was shortly after the wall opened, I was in villain that is true.

37:31 But I was thinking in Berlin before because when I was a kid like for quite a few years we lived in in Germany in Western Germany and you have Western Germany in Eastern Germany and we lived in the western part but my called was actually in the Communist Party. So, we got twice invited by the German Democratic Republic by the Socialist, part for vacation. And obviously, I didn't I didn't understand anything back then about these two different states, and we were going over this famous Border in Berlin. And I was thinking, yeah, and now we're in a different template. The but then people were still speaking there, but and I end up not even a dialect, like when you go to Switzerland. There were speaking German like before So Silent really understand it.

38:23 But yeah. So I have kind of a socialist, uh pre wow. Wow. That is one of the most interesting courses that I took in my undergrad was Marxist, Marxism, you know, Marxist economics. So let's talk about that over a pint when we're definitely cuz there's some really interesting Concepts there that are parlayed into so much the stuff we're working on. On right now and it's so funny how that word, you know? Oh, you're a socialist, has become like a thing in America, right? It's like as an insult and it's like, or as you are, you know, you're part of this scary monster group. And it's like, yeah, I I'm not a card-carrying socialist, but I do have an appreciation for the science of it, and the economics of it, which is, which is really, really interesting.

39:13 So, thank you for sharing that guys. Listen, this has been an awesome chat. We're taking things so much further. Than I thought we would just in about 45 minutes. So thank you, really looking forward to having you guys back in Dublin with us in a couple of weeks time and and finishing the program with you guys on a high note. So thank you so much for joining the show today. Thank you Pete. We really appreciate see how the invitation and look forward to meeting you in the top 10 as well, can't wait. That does it for this week folks. Thanks Lewis and Martin for opening up their minds to help us figure out why they do what they do link to get in touch with Louis and Martin. And learn more about steaks or in the show notes on our website money, never sleeps that. I, so check us out online.

39:56 Also, thanks Conan Brophy from create sad, for mixing and editing. This episode Conan is an excellent medium and to get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast. As for me I'm an early stage, startup investor and advisor focused on where fintech meet. Do and crypto meets web. 3, likes to talk to me about your business, drop me a line on info at money. Never sleeps, die, eat finally till next time. Thanks for listening. See you