193: Express Yourself | Amor Sexton, Blockdaemon and Web3 infrastructure

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Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend,
and this is money, never sleeps.

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We look inside the minds of
entrepreneurs, and at the

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crossover of startups,
Enterprise Finance, technology

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and Life.
As We Know It, This episode of

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money.
Never sleeps is sponsored by

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security.
Centrex security, Centrex is a

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trusted cyber security company.
With offices, in Dublin, Cape

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Town, in London, secure.
Centrex provides expert advisory

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Services.
Primarily in the finance and fin

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Tech Industries with tailored
Security Solutions to fit your

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specific needs and Regulatory
challenges on the show this

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week.
We've got hi, my name is a more

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Saxon and I'm head of
international operations for

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Bluff.
Damon black demon provides

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institutional grade blockchain
infrastructure enabling

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businesses such as exchanges
Banks, custodians, trust

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lenders, protocols and others to
steak scale and deploy nodes,

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featuring MPC.
Eeyore multi-party, Computing

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multi-chain, apis, and proof of
stake, validation.

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In this episode, a more and I
talk through her path into

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blockchain, that led her to
block Damon including some of

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the highlights of her time with
City BNP Paribas and coinbase in

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the last decade.
We also dive into block Damon

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and the impact of the etherium.
Merge on the Block, Damon

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strategy.
Finally, we Riff on the

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character traits that have
enabled.

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A more to become an experienced
Global leader with extensive

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Commercial Legal and
operational.

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Variants the diverse background
that includes get ready for this

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operation strategy, and
commercialization marketing, and

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Communications Regulatory, and
legal, and design, and delivery

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of Enterprise grade products and
solutions.

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All right here on money, never
sleeps.

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Hey, I'm Maura.
How's it going?

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Good, thank you.
Awesome.

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To have you on the show.
It's been a long time coming.

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It's nice to be here.
Great.

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We'll listen, you've done so
many things in your career and

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so incredibly versatile and just
thrilled to be having this chat

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with you and digging in a bit
into some of the things that

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happened that got you to this
point, but also learn more about

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block Damon and the critical
importance of block Damon, too.

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Overall web through ecosystem
and blockchain in general.

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Okay, so maybe just to get
started.

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Can you share some of the
foundational experiences that

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were critical to getting you to
the point in your career that

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you are right now?
Sure.

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I mean I think maybe if we start
at the very beginning it sounds

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like a serious thing to say.
It was a foundational point, but

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I spent the first few years
dabbling around a little bit.

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Wasn't quite sure of the
direction.

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I wanted to had ended up doing a
number of different roles from

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marketing roles to
Administration roles getting

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involved in startups and then I
went back to University and got

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a law degree which kind of set
me on the career path that I'm

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on now and then moved from law
into Innovation which is a very

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unusual jump there was a
connection there because I

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specialized in blockchain and
crypto law back in Australia and

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when I moved to Ireland I wasn't
sure that I wanted to re-qualify

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but because I'd been doing that
work.

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I was able to join Citibank and
Lead their National digital

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money portfolio because Legal
kind of my legal experience and

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knowledge is and and crypto
experience was helpful in that

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context.
So I think between that and then

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you know working innovation
technology and financial

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services over the last seven
years.

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The very different roles as you
said plus my legal career and

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then my experience in finance
and banking have given me a good

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horizontal view of what it takes
to run a business especially in

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the crypto space or the Block
Chain space.

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Yeah, incredible.
And You know that just in

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looking at your background and
being aware of a lot of it.

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But seeing even more all of the
different colors of this come

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out and, you know, you've
mentioned City and there was BNP

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power button there.
Coinbase block Damon now sales,

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recruitment media, PR and calms
lawyer consultant.

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Advisor blockchain Workshop,
facilitator, Innovation manager,

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digital transformation leader.
See, xux operations strategy.

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Out your role with block, damn
it.

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So that diversity is incredible
and to and I think it in the

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chats that we've had around
obviously you know you were

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wonderful mentor, on our
techstars web 3 program and the

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chats it.
We've had around that that your

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diversity in skills and
adaptability really come to 4.

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So it's you know anything that
you can point to in the backdrop

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of what was the moment in crypto
and blockchain for you that made

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you sit up Up and say, we'll
listen, this is an area that I'm

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going to pursue.
Yeah, I think I think one of the

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things that's guided my career
because is just my light,

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insatiable lack of my insatiable
curiosity, I just, I'm always

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curious, I love a challenge, the
media or challenge, the more I

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like to get in and figure it
out.

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And that's probably why I've had
so many different roles, but for

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the crypto one in particular, I
was working for a law firm who

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specialized in startups and we
had, it was December 2013, we

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had in Australia.
In start-up walk through our

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door and Sydney saying that they
were Bitcoin merchant services

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company and we were like, what?
Yeah, yeah.

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And I think what really
attracted me to it in the first

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place was just that challenge
that I spoke about the

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intellectual challenge there at
the time.

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No one even knew what it was,
let alone, how to regulate it.

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And, you know, I remember one of
the things I did back at the

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beginning of my journey and
crypto was look at the And tax

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laws and try and see what was
the most appropriate way to tax

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Bitcoin.
And one of the challenges that

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we had back then was the fact
that a lot of the arguments were

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saying that it's intangible.
So you can't exercise property

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rights over it.
We ended up using this argument

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from a case I'd read about in
University with Native title

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fishing rights for the high
court of Australia said, well,

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something doesn't necessarily
have to be tangible for you to

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exercise proprietary rights.
It's kind of funny because it's

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the one case I didn't read
before my exam and it haunted

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me.
You hear that?

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I was wow I did when I got to
use it fishing rights yeah

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native title fishing rights and
I think that's what initially

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drew me to the industry.
It was more of the intellectual

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challenge their groundbreaking
Concepts that really challenged

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the paradigms that had existed
for so long.

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And then from there it kind of a
kind of grew with the excitement

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about the possibilities of the
technology could bring but it

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was really that first, the first
kind of major challenge of

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trying to figure out What it is,
how is it different?

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How can we contextualize it for
the knowledge that people have

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today?
That's fascinating because I've

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been talking about recently to a
few different folks that the

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whole initial cypherpunk effort
of where Bitcoin came from in

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that The Originators of Bitcoin.
And I think we all can say with

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a fair enough degree of
certainty that it wasn't just

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one individual named Satoshi
Nakamoto, right?

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The creation of peer-to-peer
electronic cash.

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The Originators of this just set
out to prove that you could own

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data and that there were whether
that was some type of value or

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some type of other data point or
file or whatever that you could

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have this provenance.
And this, you could demonstrate

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that there is ownership of a
piece of virtual property or

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data or something in the virtual
world, okay?

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Using the internet or using
distributed computing, could go

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down a big rabbit hole with this
and but the first thing that

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Happened to say, well, let's see
if we can do this because a lot

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of the people that were involved
with this, had tried with this

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e-cash push before to be able to
do something in this space with

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in creation of a crypto type
token.

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And when you talk about things
like fishing rights, that just

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points to this is that, you
know, the legal similarities

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between an intangible piece of
data that actually has value and

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intangible.
Whether it's an agreement or

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whether it is something that is
granted Somebody it is the right

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to be able to actually fish the
similarity.

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There is just so striking that
it all came back to that.

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I just I yeah it's probably one
of the high moments in my career

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mainly because it I did really
bad in that exam because I

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hadn't bothered to read.
There was like three major cases

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that you needed to read.
And there's a whole question

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just on that case and I walked
out of that exam shell-shocked,

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just going.
Oh my God, I can't believe you

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forgot to read that case.
And so it was something that he

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literally hot Victory and I
don't know if I hadn't made that

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mess up at University and if I
hadn't forgotten for that exam

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would, I would have come to mind
later on when we're looking a

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bit quite or not.
So I think all the stars

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aligned, but there are awesome.
Awesome.

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And why don't we move into into
block, Damon and tell me about

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the source of your conviction on
why?

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This is a perfect thing for you
to be working on right now with

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the context of blocked a manned
and the latest with what's going

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on with a business.
Yeah.

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Tar.
So I guess a little bit about

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block them and it's really, it's
a web three infrastructure

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company.
So the idea is, especially for

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institutional clients.
The idea is that we're

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essentially the backbone of the
web three industry when it comes

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to infrastructure.
So it's use case agnostic.

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We support many, many different
institutional clients for

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whatever, use case they have and
it's everything from nodes to

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validators, apis and PC
technology.

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And I think that's why I like
the company.

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So Much.
And I think that's what really

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drew it to me as well because
the industry itself is

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continually evolving and
growing.

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And I love the fact that because
we're infrastructure and we use

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cast agnostic.
We can really play a pivotal

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role in helping the industry
grow and helping the ecosystems

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grow.
But we're not necessarily tied

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to the specific Trends or the
ups and downs.

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It's not that we're immune, but
we're, you know, we as long as

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we build great technology and we
have that Foundation, that our

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clients can Can use, they can
launch whatever, use case

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they're looking to launch.
And we can really kind of

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support the growth and continued
to play a big role in the

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evolution of the industry
without having to guess without

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having to be tied, to a specific
concept of what blockchain can

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be.
Because I think people are still

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figuring out all the different
ways that you can use it.

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And their utilization of the
technology is still very much

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changing and evolving thing.
Yeah, definitely.

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You know that brings to mind to
points a more.

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Is that one?
There are?

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I was looking at this last night
for something and I think

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there's, you know, I have been
referencing 30 million, daily,

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active users of metal mask,
wallets.

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And Madam asked, is the most
popular of the web three

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wallets.
There's tons of other ones out

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there, but that would be where
the majority is probably

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alongside coinbase wallet and a
number of others, okay?

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And it's still like you said,
for those of us in this space,

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it's huge and its massive and
important.

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But the space All from a Global
Perspective is still pretty

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small, but that the, the
opportunity for where things

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will go.
Someone was asking me about

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metaverse yesterday, and the
overall economic projections for

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a metaverse economy, being
somewhere in the region of five

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to thirteen trillion, and
obviously, blockchain powers, or

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at this may not be obviously to
everybody, but at least from,

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you know, the, the the, it were
my thesis lies and where my

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beliefs are, is that Jane is a
significant enabler of metaverse

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and that for that to all operate
with fluency and very low

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latency and being able to have
people immersed in these 3D

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virtual worlds, you're going to
need to stand up an awful lot of

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notes.
Write an awful lot of blockchain

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nodes in order to do that.
So even though the industry that

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block Damon are servicing right
now and Incredibly very, you

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know, very successful role in
the industry right now on the

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global scheme of things.
It is a small industry Tree.

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But one that has significantly
important growth potential for

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the global economy as we move
ahead.

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Yeah yeah yeah I think I mean
I've been in the industry now

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since December 2013.
So I've seen many different

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permutations of what the
industry is focused on and the

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way and by that I mean kind of
Trends and how they use the

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technology and I think that's
why the infrastructure play is

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so exciting to me because I've
been through a few different

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iterations and I know there's
going to be many more

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iterations.
And I this isn't my idea.

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It's an idea that actually one
of really really smart member of

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the Sydney.
Blockchain Community gave me

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years ago but he drew the
analogy between blockchain and

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containerization and the
shipping industry.

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The idea that what it really
gave was this this way to

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securely move value from point A
to point B in value in shipping

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was the cargo and here it's
data.

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And so I think in the same way
that the containerization Really

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transformed the global economy
really because it made it so it

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made globalization of trade that
much more efficient and you know

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it changed it changed the way.
Docks operated.

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It change the shape of ships.
It changed it really had this

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phenomenal effect across the
world.

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I think I'm not saying the
blockchain will have the same

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level of impact, but I think
because that's simple concept of

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being able to tokenize data,
being able to ascribe,

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Characteristic to that data,
whether its identity, whether

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its Financial, or otherwise, and
being able to secure the

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transfer of that across the
network.

255
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I just think that's, that's just
going to mean that.

256
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:05,800
There's so many different things
that people can use it for the

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future.
The things we know like

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metaverse and those things we
just they're not even on our

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radar yet.
Yeah.

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And you're the one thing they
all have like you said, is it

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snows, it's private key
management and Technology.

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It's even I even think that I
love.

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Are you be pretty product to the
API Suite because maybe you

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00:14:23,708 --> 00:14:25,600
don't need a node.
Maybe you just need to be able

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00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,800
to access the network and be
able to write two nodes or

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interact with nodes.
And I think all of those

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different types of ways that we
can provide an easier way for

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people to participate in that
works.

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I think that's, that's really
what we do.

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And that's what excites me about
it because we can watch the

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00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,700
ecosystem grow across all of the
different participants in all of

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the different ways that they
want to interact.

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Yeah, definitely.
And like looking back 20 years

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00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,900
ago and seeing before the Cycles
began with blockchain and crypto

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00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:59,800
was, you know, a little thing
called the.com burst in 2001 and

276
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,400
being right in the middle of
that because I had my dad had

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00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,400
asked me back at that point.
I was working.

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00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,600
I just finished working for
Fidelity and he said people what

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00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,000
would be a good Fidelity fun for
me to put some money into for,

280
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,800
you know, 23 years and I said oh
there's this great emerging Tech

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00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,900
fund that was completely tied to
NASDAQ in 2001 and that drop

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00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:20,900
from 5000 like 1,300 Almost
mirroring the etherium levels of

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00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:26,100
price drop that we've seen and
you know that the companies that

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00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:30,100
came out of that like my uncle
was working for someone called

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00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:32,400
Bay networks at the time who
ended up being acquired by

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00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,900
Cisco, right?
All the infrastructure that

287
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:38,500
Cisco built for the internet to
start scaling what and they've

288
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:41,600
been incredibly successful
Global player now.

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00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,700
So I'm kind of, I know there are
way too many analogies and

290
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,800
parallels drawn between what was
built.

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00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:51,100
After the.com crash.
That was the first one of these,

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00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:53,700
that we had seen in a while in
terms of significant Market,

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00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:56,400
drop or the first one that we
saw that was tied to kind of

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00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,700
over inflation of technology and
the valuations around that.

295
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:03,800
And now we've been through
probably for crypto Cycles now.

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00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:06,500
But it's the last one, probably
the last two that have been the

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00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:09,300
most prominent terms of, at
least media attention and seeing

298
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,600
the companies that have weather
the storm throughout that, you

299
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,800
know, picks and shovels.
He's kind of where, you know, it

300
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,400
feels like the good money's at,
you know.

301
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,000
Yeah, no definitely I think but
I think again that comes back to

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00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,900
the idea of recognizing that
some things in the industry are

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00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,300
going to last the test of time
their pervasive and then other

304
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,400
things are a trend.
I guess the trend of what people

305
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,500
happen to be interested in as
far as using the technology at a

306
00:16:36,508 --> 00:16:38,900
particular point in time.
Yeah, you're differentiating

307
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,900
between that and I think the
media, the media and the general

308
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,200
public.
If they're not there, what they

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00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,300
hear about other trends that,
you know, and and that's always

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00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:50,000
going to be What gets the focus
and being able to separate the

311
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,000
noise from that relates to a
specific Trend and looking at

312
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,400
the technology and being able to
critically, critically analyze

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00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,500
that as a kind of a separate
opportunity.

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00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:04,500
I think is really important.
It's just like, you know, people

315
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:07,400
use the internet for many
different things and you don't

316
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,900
kind of say the internet is
tuned and never going to go

317
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,400
anywhere.
You look at the particular

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00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,800
things and activities and people
are carrying out using web to

319
00:17:15,808 --> 00:17:21,599
technology in the interim.
Let me take a minute to tell you

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Centrex.com, that's SEC.
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RI x.com.
And well, as I'm looking to

339
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,700
rebuild my investment thesis for
the next text arts program.

340
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,400
I am pointing to infrastructure,
right?

341
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,700
And one of the things I'm
thinking about that, I want to

342
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:38,700
get your Insight on is that
right now in the crypto space,

343
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,600
there are a lot of propositions
that are consumer focused or

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00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,800
individual focused.
And that would be based on

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00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,200
perhaps bringing a token, a
market that incentivizes users

346
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,200
and developers and that is
Intrinsically linked to your

347
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,800
value proposition in the to our
package together.

348
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,400
You build a decentralized
network, you scale that over

349
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,700
five years, your token
eventually becomes

350
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:03,100
representative of the value of
what you've created.

351
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:07,800
Okay and there's obviously a lot
of regulatory lenses on this

352
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,800
now, in terms of what is a token
and is at a security or is it

353
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,900
not a security and that is
changing.

354
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,600
It feels like in the US on a
daily basis at least but in the

355
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,400
you know in Europe we have the
mica or Mica depending upon how

356
00:19:21,408 --> 00:19:22,100
you want to.
Say it.

357
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:26,300
I never pick one or the other.
Yeah, regulation Mica Mica.

358
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,000
Okay, thank you.
Like, the artist who was

359
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400
surprisingly.
I was at a, what was it?

360
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,200
The oxygen music festival in
Ireland years ago and Mica the

361
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,600
artist was surprisingly good.
I didn't go to see Mica, but he

362
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,200
played there and he was
surprisingly a good Entertainer

363
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,600
but my Australian accent
notoriously butchers things.

364
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,900
I said wouldn't necessarily use
my okay my daughter watches this

365
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:53,800
Australia.
Oh, called little lunch and

366
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,600
she's now trying to mimic the
Australian accent and she's

367
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,800
getting quite good at that.
She's getting quite good at that

368
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,700
clench your teeth when you talk,
apparently, that's the secret to

369
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:04,200
it.
There you go.

370
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,000
Okay.
I'll clue her in on that.

371
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,000
I'll let her know, but the, you
know, where was I going with

372
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:10,700
this?
It.

373
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:14,000
Oh, okay.
So, you know, where where I'm

374
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,500
thinking about this is obviously
the regulatory lens on consumer,

375
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:20,000
Focus or individual Focus, web
three propositions.

376
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:23,900
And that, you know, you I've
worked in both the regulated

377
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:27,400
blockchain and crypto space and
now the space that doesn't

378
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,300
require regulation.
It doesn't have regulation on

379
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,400
top because it's infrastructure.
How are you thinking about, what

380
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,600
has it been like for you and
working the regulated Space

381
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:35,900
versus working in that this
space?

382
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:39,400
It doesn't require regulation in
terms of seeing projects and

383
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,600
products and initiatives grow
and it, you know, and start to

384
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,800
scale on the market.
Yeah, I I probably have a unique

385
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600
view on this because I spent
years practicing as a lawyer.

386
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,600
So I don't think I necessarily
And I have the same view.

387
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,000
The lot of people doing the
industry.

388
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,400
I think that there's definitely
a compliance burden and there's

389
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,400
definitely a lot of
administrative overhead that

390
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,100
comes with being regulated but
in the infrastructure space I

391
00:21:03,108 --> 00:21:06,100
actually think in the kind of
institutional space let's say

392
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,300
not just infrastructure but in
the institutional space,

393
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:13,100
actually think that regulation
can drive adoption and can drive

394
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:16,500
interest in the market because a
lot of your clients are

395
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,700
themselves regulated
institutions or it give you

396
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:21,900
think about it.
What does regulation bring In

397
00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:26,100
regulation, brings a level of
oversight, which gives people

398
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:30,500
comfort in the fact that their
counterparty or the business of

399
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:34,400
they're interacting with is a
legitimate business, that's

400
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,800
resilient.
And has certain very important

401
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,600
processes and controls in place.
And I think when you operate in

402
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,700
the institutional space weather
Institute infrastructure,

403
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:49,100
otherwise clients expect a
certain level of behavior from

404
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:50,900
you.
They expect you to have this

405
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,000
resilient Internal processes and
practices you know getting ISO

406
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,300
certified.
Like we are that's a really big

407
00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:59,400
deal because that gives people a
level of comfort.

408
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,200
How we run our business, having
an AML and compliance program

409
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,600
actually gives people a level of
comfort as well?

410
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,200
Whether or not you're, you're
required to have one by law.

411
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,200
I think.
I think the institutional space

412
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,800
is is different to retail in
that the expectation.

413
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,700
Even if there is no regulatory
expectation, the expectation

414
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,500
from your clients is that
regulated or not?

415
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,000
You hold yourself up.
Up to a certain standard and you

416
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,700
operate at a certain level and
often that reflects the

417
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,800
requirements that you would have
under regulation, it kind of

418
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,700
regulatory regime as well so she
can potentially be a good thing

419
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,600
in our space.
It can well like, you know

420
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,600
looking at the different
certification processes that I

421
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,700
went through when I was in
traditional finance and now

422
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:45,500
looking at what you know Tech
firms have available to them

423
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:48,300
like sock to, right?
And what is the other one you my

424
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,600
is certified.
Oh absolutely Dave.

425
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,000
Keith, who's a friend from a
business called circuit, you

426
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,900
know, the very earliest stages
decided to go after that and

427
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:00,800
that's, you know, really help
their business grow from two

428
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,700
people, you know, three years
ago, up to about 30 people with

429
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:05,300
funding that they got in the
last couple of years.

430
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:07,300
So that's, that's been
critically important to them.

431
00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,900
And on that point on regulation
being helpful, Owen, Fitzgerald

432
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,400
and I were talking about this
last week on the show was that,

433
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,400
you know, someone had asked me,
is there a point of trying to

434
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,400
offer to decentralized exchange
has the bility to identify their

435
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,200
customers and I'm like they
don't have to and nor do they

436
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,700
want to and nor will the
customers want to?

437
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:31,200
And Owen said to me well why
wouldn't you want to?

438
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,100
And I said well it's not because
I'm afraid of them knowing who I

439
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:37,400
am because I'm reporting my
trading anyway it's that I don't

440
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,200
trust them with data right.
I don't believe that they have

441
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,100
robust compliance processes in
place to be able to, you know,

442
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:47,200
to be able to protect my data
and for all to be safe.

443
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,200
So when you're looking at it
from its to shal angle and

444
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,400
having things like sock to and
is 0 that does To create that

445
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,400
trust and Trust can be obviously
everything in business, right?

446
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:58,600
And I think it's about
proportionate regulations.

447
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,000
Are that's appropriate for the
activity that you're carrying

448
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,600
out and I think that's what the
challenge is.

449
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,000
So like you said, if you are an
infrastructure company being

450
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,000
regulated for what, you know,
where were the risks inherent in

451
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,700
your activities and maybe the
focus of regulators would be on

452
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,900
the resilience of the network
and your processes there,

453
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,600
because that's, that's the role
that you carry out in.

454
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,900
In the ecosystem and I think
that's the main thing making

455
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:29,900
sure that as the regulatory
environment develops an evolved

456
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,200
for crypto and blockchain that
it's focusing on the business

457
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,600
activities.
Obviously you've got the

458
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,800
characterization of the token
and the kind of interaction

459
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,200
which is what the SEC has been
focusing on, but looking examine

460
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,100
your stripping away, all of that
and just focusing really on what

461
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:48,800
what are the business activities
of the company is carrying out

462
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,200
where is the inherent risk in
those activities and let's

463
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,300
focus.
Not so that they don't

464
00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:56,000
inadvertently.
I do believe like I'm saying,

465
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,500
I'm kind of content for myself
here.

466
00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:59,800
I've said regulations a good
thing but it can stifle

467
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,700
Innovation if it's applied in
the wrong way.

468
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:06,000
So I think having that balance
and and focus on the the actual

469
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,000
activities itself and not the
industry as a whole or even like

470
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,100
to a point, I do think you need
to look at the characterization

471
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,100
of Tokyo but you can't have this
broad brush approach which is

472
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:17,200
actually I think Micah's.
Characterization of tokens.

473
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,400
Isn't the worst?
I think it's at least better and

474
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,100
provides a little bit more
certainty than Then what we're

475
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:23,900
seeing in the u.s. at the moment
when there's still a lot of

476
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:27,300
uncertainty on the
characteristics of tokens, ya

477
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:31,800
know, having having that Clarity
and knowing what do I fall into

478
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,800
that camp or not?
Like I went through with

479
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,200
somebody last week even on the
the Ireland vast virtual assets

480
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,000
service provider relation.
I said, 1 2 3 4 5.

481
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,400
Are you doing one of these five
things?

482
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,600
Yes or no, right?
Having that certainty on whether

483
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,200
or not you need to actually
apply for that authorization is

484
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,600
a good thing, right?
Yeah.

485
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,600
You know, vast was just a drop
in the bucket.

486
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,400
R2 where Meek is going to go and
you know, what do they say?

487
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,100
18 months after its it's signed
into law, it will become

488
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:01,600
effective.
We're looking at some point in

489
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,200
2024, I expect at this stage
right with it, with a fast

490
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,300
follower, probably forgive her
afterwards.

491
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,100
Oh, definitely, definitely know
when you talk about

492
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,800
understanding the activities
that you're conducting and what

493
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,300
are the risks?
Yeah, I can hear the lawyer and

494
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:16,800
you coming out of me.
Absolutely.

495
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,400
I mean for me, but I guess that
the danger of what maker has

496
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,600
done and I know, The Regulators
and the policymakers are aware

497
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,400
of this is unfortunate because
it ties back to our earlier

498
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,500
conversation about how the
industry keeps evolving defining

499
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:33,000
it in the way that they have
done means that the industry

500
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,100
will continue about to evolve.
And how do you find that balance

501
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:38,100
between providing certainty and
definition?

502
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:42,200
But also being able to adapt
your consensus?

503
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,700
New use cases pop-up.
And I know that's the challenge

504
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:46,200
they had, for example, with
defy.

505
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:50,100
So I don't envy the
policymakers, I think they do

506
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:51,800
the best they can.
But, you know, we're The

507
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,300
industry and struggling to keep
up with all of the changes.

508
00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,300
I can't even imagine what
they're experiencing as they as

509
00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:00,200
they go and try and figure out
the most appropriate way to

510
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,800
regulate it.
I know, I know it's not easy,

511
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,800
speaking of things that are not
easy, try pulling out an engine

512
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,700
of a car that's going 150 miles
per hour, and replacing it with

513
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:13,900
a new engine and that's
something that etherium went

514
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,100
through in the last few weeks
with the merge.

515
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,200
And, you know, some of the stats
coming back from that is that

516
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,600
it's 99%. %, less usage of
energy.

517
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,400
People would compare the usage
of electricity by the etherium

518
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,700
network, to be equivalent to
that of Belgium in the country

519
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:33,200
of Belgium or point two percent
of the world's energy usage.

520
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,200
And now, it's not even in the
low percentages or even 1/10 or

521
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,800
1/100 of a percentage since, you
know, since the merge how

522
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,000
strategically impactful, do you
think that the theory emerge and

523
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,800
what's coming?
After that will be, how

524
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,100
important will that be to the
black day in the I think it's, I

525
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:57,100
think it's really important, not
just for the, not just for book

526
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:01,100
Damon, but for the industry, as
a whole was traffic, it's funny

527
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:03,600
because the morning after the
merge happened, I didn't sleep

528
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,400
at all that night.
I was waiting.

529
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,700
My phone was off silent for the
first time, but over time, it

530
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,800
kept waiting for the phone call.
And then couldn't couldn't sleep

531
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,800
properly because I kept being
convinced that I'd missed the

532
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,200
phone call.
So, kept waking up and checking

533
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,800
my phone, and I was trying to
explain to my husband that night

534
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,200
and the next morning about the
big event.

535
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,600
He call you blessed and he tried
to engage with.

536
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,800
Yeah, he didn't understand it
because I guess he just not.

537
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,900
You have to kind of be in the
industry to really get the

538
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:36,500
significance of the event.
And I think for me the biggest

539
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:38,900
thing and this is probably
because I wear that operational

540
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:40,400
hat and that's the way my brain
works.

541
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,400
But the biggest thing is that it
really did prove that you can

542
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,200
operate a decentralized network
at scale.

543
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:51,000
The fact that they did that
incredibly complex Network,

544
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,000
upgrade practically.
No downtime.

545
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,300
They didn't compromise the
security in the dissent

546
00:28:56,300 --> 00:29:01,800
realization of the protocol and
just the sheer volume of people

547
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,700
that were involved in that
across the globe.

548
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:09,500
Purely decentralized, I think
was just a milestone moment

549
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:13,800
because in my mind it moved it
from being this nascent

550
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,400
technology concept which I think
it it had evolved from that.

551
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,000
But there was still still Echoes
of that when people would talk

552
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,100
about the concept and it proved
that no, this isn't Astral, it's

553
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,200
not straight forward.
Speed is complex and you need

554
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,700
experts to understand, but you
can actually have events like

555
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:36,300
this on chain and be able to
have them run smoothly without

556
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,400
needing to have the normal
centralized process as you'd

557
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,900
have with a network upgrade like
this.

558
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,100
So I think that was very that
was a very big deal for the

559
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:47,000
industry and and for blocking as
well because we were we played

560
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,300
such a you know we were actively
involved in that process and it

561
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:54,100
was fantastic for our team.
To be involved in to have

562
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,300
experience that.
I think it was a really big deal

563
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,800
for everyone.
And then I think the other thing

564
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,100
is really, you know, with
aetherium, they've brought a new

565
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,400
way of or they've introduced new
ways of incentivizing network

566
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,600
participation with transaction
rewards and me, the, I think it

567
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,500
was really interesting to their
participation in the network and

568
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,900
how we incentivize that in order
to increase the resilience of

569
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,700
the network is more people that
are involved, the more secure

570
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:21,900
and resilient the network is.
So I think it's it's a really

571
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,400
interesting concept.
I'm quite excited about it.

572
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,000
I know that it's also going to
drive a lot of interest in the

573
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,800
network as well from our
clients.

574
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,800
So I think that's another really
important Evolution with the The

575
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,000
Ether merge.
And then, I think just generally

576
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000
the number of new validators
that have joined the network,

577
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,000
the people who are now probably
going to be a little bit more

578
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,100
interested in it because of the
fact that some of the concerns

579
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:48,300
around ESG of been removed and
energy consumption, I just think

580
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:54,000
it's, it's been an amazing
moment to show that the industry

581
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,700
can operate at that scale.
It's introduced new people

582
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,500
perhaps to the network into the
industry that have been watching

583
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:04,200
it from from a bit of a distance
and waiting to see what

584
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,700
happened.
And perhaps might have had some

585
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:09,600
concerns around different parts
of different parts of the way

586
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,200
that the proof-of-work protocol
was operating previously.

587
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,200
So I think it's it's exciting
times what that will mean in the

588
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,500
future.
I think it's going to again come

589
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:21,600
down to the fact that one of the
things about I love about a

590
00:31:21,608 --> 00:31:25,700
theorem is that it's got that
you Scylla T aspect to it and

591
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:30,800
it's so it's so supportive of
different use cases, and there's

592
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,800
so many different ways people
can use that.

593
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,700
So I'm hoping and I expect that
we'll see.

594
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:39,700
Lots of new innovation happen on
top of the network now, which

595
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:42,400
which, you know, will just be
great for the industry as a

596
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,900
whole.
Yeah, yeah.

597
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:48,100
It's a great point because you
wonder how much that how clogged

598
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:53,100
the network had been and how you
know, it had slowed down gas Is

599
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,400
fees even though the merge is
not intended to significantly,

600
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,600
reduce gas fees?
It feels like it has so far, but

601
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,100
I think it's just a minor
operation.

602
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:05,500
But all of that had been a big
narrative in grip down Block

603
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:06,900
Chain for the last couple of
years.

604
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:11,600
And what might that had driven
towards layer twos like a

605
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,200
polygon or others that were you
then are dealing with different

606
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,300
set of constraints.
So I'm excited as well to see

607
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:21,700
what Founders are then saying to
me.

608
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:24,100
Listen, we are building on it.
Him, right?

609
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,800
And here's why and now that
we're just in the very

610
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,100
beginning, we're only a, you
know, a few weeks on and I was

611
00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:33,700
listening to the, to the guys on
the bank list podcast, talk

612
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:37,600
about this and that the etherium
I think it was the was it the

613
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,500
burn of tokens or no, it was a
supply created, it was a supply

614
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:45,700
created since moving away from
the more complex proof of work

615
00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:50,200
into the the less intensive
proof of stake and that the

616
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,100
etherium tokens that are
created.

617
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:55,000
It was already Eddie far less
and was seeing this impact on

618
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,300
the supply.
Now impact on Supply.

619
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,600
Will that then drive demand and
drive the price higher?

620
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,700
It's like what we're looking at
the three to five-year Arc here,

621
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:04,600
not thump something, that's
going to happen, over three to

622
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:05,700
five weeks.
But yeah.

623
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:10,700
Excited to see how this all
unfolds thinking about shifting

624
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:14,300
gears a more back into your
track record, a bit.

625
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,400
As I talked about with you at
the beginning, you've done a lot

626
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,400
of different things.
What do you think have been your

627
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,300
go to character traits?
Really the The parts of inside a

628
00:33:25,308 --> 00:33:28,200
more that have enabled you to
adapt to so many different

629
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,900
situations almost like a
Founder, an entrepreneur, you

630
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:38,200
know, in the, in the middle of
growing and scaling what would

631
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,000
become a unicorn?
It feels like, you know, you've

632
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,000
adapted to so many different
situations.

633
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,800
What are the things inside that?
You think of it have enabled you

634
00:33:45,808 --> 00:33:50,400
to do that?
Sorry, that was my stereo my

635
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,000
watch.
It was my Sonic.

636
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,300
Okay, I get that too.
I get that too.

637
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,600
I must I must have knocked it
with my hand.

638
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:03,000
I think one of the things I've
been told before actually was

639
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,200
one of my colleagues at City who
mentions this.

640
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,400
He said I'm really good at
thinking around corners and

641
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,800
joining abstract dot.
So, I think that's probably,

642
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,100
that's probably it.
A lot of, I always think of

643
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:19,000
things as key, learnings and
skills that Pick up being a way

644
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,800
to look at something or way to
approach something and being

645
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,600
able to see the analogies and
see the similarities in context.

646
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,600
I think, you know, whether we
were talking earlier about

647
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,400
fishing rights and Bitcoin, but
maybe it's, for example, how to

648
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,400
use your.
I ran a design team for a while

649
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,199
and being paid.
In fact, I started the design

650
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,699
center of excellence there and I
remember, I used to scratch my

651
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:44,699
head and I used to joke with the
guys and say, how did it lawyer

652
00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:47,800
and don't running a design team,
they taught me a lot about About

653
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,600
creative thinking a lot about
human Centric design.

654
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,699
I was able to use a lot of my
training from my, my legal

655
00:34:56,699 --> 00:35:02,000
training, on how to how to break
down a problem into its core

656
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:04,600
pieces.
And how to approach it in a very

657
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,900
structured, analytical way, you
know, the whole Iraq thing issue

658
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,800
rule.
Application conclusion is what

659
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,900
they teach you at law school and
I think core skills like that

660
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:18,900
are transferable whether you're
trying to Solve a complex legal

661
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:20,800
problem, or whether you're
trying to put together a

662
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,900
business case or even you know,
we the design team we used to

663
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,900
use it a lot as well, like
really focusing stripping out

664
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:31,500
the noise the jargon which every
industry has its own jargon and

665
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,500
looking at kind of the core
issues and trying to address

666
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:37,700
them directly and see how you
can build Solutions off there.

667
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,800
That address the core issues.
I think that's something.

668
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,700
We're just that ability to see
how those skills can move.

669
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:49,100
Horizontally is something that
that I've Been really lucky to

670
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,400
leverage in my career and then I
think the Curiosity could and

671
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,100
should do earlier.
My career hasn't been planned, a

672
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:57,500
lot of people have.
I've been asked that before by

673
00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:59,200
people.
I've mentored by, you know, how

674
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,300
do I get a career, like yours.
How do I plan it?

675
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,100
And I said, it hasn't been
planned.

676
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:06,300
I'm I'm curious, I love
opportunities.

677
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:10,700
I'm not afraid to try and Chase
the interesting work I suppose

678
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:13,000
because I think you're happier
in life when you're doing work

679
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,400
that you love.
Yeah, Yeah.

680
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,500
Curiosity and the ability to
Part of see the differences and

681
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,300
similarities between different
contexts and different concepts

682
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,000
and because you kind of Stripped
Away the outer coating.

683
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:31,800
So, do you you do you ever find
like II get, you know, my

684
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,900
sister's say to me Pete Bridge
Too Far.

685
00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:37,300
Right?
So, you know that, that the

686
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,900
seeing the similarities, and I
love a good analogy.

687
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,000
That sometimes I do go A Bridge
Too Far In terms, I haven't

688
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,500
brought people along because you
are thinking, Seeing three,

689
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:51,600
four, five steps ahead.
How do you bring people along?

690
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:55,700
How do you do that?
Definitely, that happens to me a

691
00:36:55,707 --> 00:36:56,900
lot.
Like one of my colleagues

692
00:36:56,900 --> 00:37:00,800
actually said to me yesterday, I
had he came back with something.

693
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,500
I was like yep, that's what I
was thinking too.

694
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:05,800
And he's like, you're always,
you're always a few steps ahead.

695
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:10,300
Yeah, I think I think one of the
skills that I picked up

696
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,100
actually, when I was doing
marketing PR, the I've brought

697
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:15,500
through.
And also, you know, it's also

698
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:19,900
what designers do to is focusing
on Your audience and your

699
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:22,000
audience could be a colleague,
it could be someone in your

700
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,500
team.
It could be a client like,

701
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,400
whoever it is that you're
communicating with and

702
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,900
understanding it from their
Viewpoint.

703
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:32,400
Whether you're trying to explain
a concept to them, whether

704
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,200
you're trying to ask them to do
something, or you're trying to

705
00:37:35,207 --> 00:37:39,300
sell someone something, just
putting yourself in their shoes

706
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:43,600
and not assuming that, you know
what they want and taking the

707
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400
time to ask them.
But then also understanding and

708
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,600
this is this is the Enoch thing
has I'm in a tech role in the

709
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,400
tech industry but I'm really
about people because I think at

710
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,600
the end of the day businesses
are run by people and just kind

711
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,400
of understanding what that
person is interested in and

712
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,800
contextualizing it for them so
that you could bring them on the

713
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,400
journey because everyone's just
trying to do their job at the

714
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,400
end of the day, everyone has
their own things that they'll be

715
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,600
focused on whether it's whether
it's things that they need to

716
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,900
know to do their job or it's
things that they might be

717
00:38:10,900 --> 00:38:14,200
concerned about in the kind of
broader context of the career

718
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,300
and just trying to contextualize
stuff and taking the time.

719
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:22,400
To adapt the communication to a
particular person or group of

720
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,100
people so that you can really
not drag them along, but bring

721
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,100
them on the journey because they
understand it.

722
00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:31,600
And I think a lot of the times
in business, whether it's a

723
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,100
client that you're trying to win
a colleague that you're trying

724
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:38,000
to work with a lot of the times,
it's the lack of understanding

725
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,600
that can cause challenges, and
when people actually understand

726
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,500
what's happening, and they feel
like they have that transparency

727
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:46,700
in the comfort.
And they understand where the

728
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,300
direction whether It's what your
business is and who you are and

729
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:52,600
how you operate or or what the
plan is for a particular

730
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,000
evolution in the business.
I think that's the main things

731
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,600
are communicating and
contextualizing.

732
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,500
Oh absolutely.
Communicating and you know the

733
00:39:01,700 --> 00:39:04,300
body language and things you do
are critically important to

734
00:39:04,308 --> 00:39:07,500
understand that people respond
differently and my first move

735
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,300
away from a completely
homogeneous set of people that I

736
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,500
had to manage back in the 90s at
Fidelity.

737
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:16,200
I went to Bermuda and a woman
that I had on my team she was

738
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,700
from Molly, I think.
In Western Africa and I lost her

739
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,000
right eye.
She was still working with me,

740
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,100
but she wasn't responding and to
my coaching and what I was

741
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:29,300
trying to do to motivate her and
any time that we had a

742
00:39:29,308 --> 00:39:33,200
one-to-one conversation slowly,
over the weeks, it just became

743
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,900
less and less engaging.
And I finally, I said to her, I

744
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,700
said what's going on and she's
like, I just can't get over that

745
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:39,300
thing.
You do.

746
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:40,900
I said, what are you talking
about?

747
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,800
She's like, you sit there with
your leg crossed over the other

748
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,600
and I could see the sole of your
shoe.

749
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,200
I'm like so.
Sorry, and she said, well, where

750
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,600
I come from, that is an insult.
When you show someone the bottom

751
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,500
of your shoe that is an insult.
I'm like, listen, I didn't know

752
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,500
that she's like, clear the air.
She's like, I know you didn't

753
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,000
know that either, but it's in my
subconscious that I'm having

754
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,800
trouble with that.
So, I stopped it and I literally

755
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,700
put my foot down, right.
So it's, you know, they're these

756
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:11,800
little things when you get into
international business and

757
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,300
outside of the culture, you grow
up in that you know,

758
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:18,300
communication context body
language Everything can have a

759
00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:20,100
big impact and be able to adapt
to.

760
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:22,500
That is his.
Yeah, exactly.

761
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,800
That was one thing that people
may not have known about me but

762
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,700
the last question we asked
everybody on this podcast and

763
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:33,500
more is the following what is
one thing that people wouldn't

764
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:37,600
expect to know about you?
I guess this is this podcast is

765
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,400
more about my professional life
so this is something that every

766
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,500
one of my personal life noise.
But not a lot of people have

767
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:43,900
worked with me on know me,
professionally.

768
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:45,600
Don't know that.
I'm obsessed with cooking.

769
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,200
Okay, I have dreams of owning a
food truck one day.

770
00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:53,700
That's my that's my big
ambition.

771
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:55,900
There's all sorts of jokes
amongst my friends and they're

772
00:40:55,900 --> 00:40:58,400
so I don't know that actually
want to work in the food truck

773
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,700
because I don't do well with
kind of tight stages.

774
00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:02,200
I love the idea.
Okay.

775
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:07,100
Southeast Asian street food.
Yeah, I love, I love cooking.

776
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,100
I love food.
I dream about food.

777
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:11,600
I think about it all the time.
It's my creative Outlet.

778
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,400
It's how I socialize.
It's how I show love.

779
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,500
I show love through food, I love
nothing more.

780
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,500
Okay.
And it's the way ironically the

781
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:23,200
way I wind down so I can do a 12
or 13 hours a day and then

782
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,800
cooking a big plate of pasta or
some Curry or something like

783
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000
that.
For my family is a way that my

784
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,300
brain just kind of these dresses
and ones down, I'm with you, I'm

785
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:35,800
with you.
And what are you gonna call the

786
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,100
food truck hadn't thought about
that?

787
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:41,200
I the other thing that I guess
people wouldn't expect to know

788
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,100
about me is I'm a creative
thinker but I'm not an inventive

789
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:46,900
thinker.
I'm never the person who comes

790
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,100
up with the Best name or the
idea.

791
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,900
I'm the person who helps turn
the idea into a business.

792
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,200
I'm not, that's not me, in fact,
I remember I joke about because

793
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,900
I remember when Google first
launched, remember having

794
00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:01,000
conversations with my dad just
being like, that is the worst

795
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,700
name that I have ever heard.
It will never take off.

796
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:08,400
It sounds so silly.
It doesn't make sense.

797
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:12,800
So, yeah, maybe a play on my, my
first name, that's always a nice

798
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,100
handy.
Well, listen music, You could,

799
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,400
you could and I was the first
thing I was thinking of was

800
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,300
something, you know, some
alliteration of a more and

801
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:26,000
something out and, but on the
train up to Belfast tomorrow

802
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,500
morning, obviously recording
this on a Wednesday, but I'll be

803
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,800
heading up with with Kurt
Pittman and human burger and

804
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,100
Matt McAllister.
Shout out to all three of those

805
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:36,000
guys.
And I'll tease this out and see

806
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,200
if we can come up with a name
for you.

807
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:40,000
While the four of us are here
character 2x2 facing each other.

808
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:45,900
Well be our chat up the Belfast,
a check, I know what it's going

809
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:47,600
to look like.
Like, I'm in the menu.

810
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,500
I just can't, I can't get the
name of women in my head.

811
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,300
I love that movie with Jon
Favreau and with his food truck

812
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:58,500
and then the show that he's done
now and the fact is nice.

813
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:02,400
You know, one of the main
creative parts of the

814
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,100
continuation of the Star Wars
Universe now is just even more.

815
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:07,300
Awesome.
So yeah, I can't do any better

816
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:09,800
than me with good food and good
Star Wars.

817
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,900
So, you know, I think we're on
the same point here.

818
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:15,300
We'll listen a more.
Thank you.

819
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:17,900
I love this conversation and
there were Snippets that you

820
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:21,200
dropped in there that I could
have dragged into.

821
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,500
Probably another 30 or 40 minute
conversation.

822
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:28,100
So let's do that offline at some
stage because I always get such

823
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:30,400
wonderful insights from you.
So, thank you so much for being

824
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,600
on the show.
Thanks so much.

825
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:42,300
That does it for this week,
folks, thanks to a more sex in

826
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,500
for opening up her mind to help
us figure out why she does.

827
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:47,200
What she does links to get in
touch with a more and learn more

828
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,900
about block Damon or in the
show, notes on our website

829
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:52,300
money, never sleeps, that IE.
So check us out online.

830
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:55,300
Also, thanks to Conan Brophy,
from create sound for mixing and

831
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:57,400
editing.
This episode coating is an

832
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,600
excellent medium and to get in
touch with when you're thinking

833
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,200
about launching your own
podcast.

834
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,700
As for me, I'm an early States.
Startup investor focused on

835
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:07,000
where fintech meets crypto and
crypto meets web 3.

836
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,700
You like to talk to me about
your business, drop me a line on

837
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:12,300
info at money.
Never sleeps that I finally till

838
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:14,400
next time, thanks for listening,
see you