196: Forever | Nigel Verdon and Railsr

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Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend,
and this is money, never sleeps.

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We look inside the minds of
entrepreneurs and at the

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crossover of startups and a
prize Finance technology and

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Life, as We Know It, This
episode of money.

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Never sleeps is sponsored by
security.

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Centrex security Centrex is a
trusted cyber security company.

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With offices.
In Dublin, Cape Town in London,

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security Centrex provides
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Advisory Is primarily in the
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with tailored Security Solutions
to fit your specific needs and

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Regulatory challenges on the
show this week.

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We've got I'm not as if I
didn't.

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I'm the CEO and co-founder of
Rosa, Nigel is a three-time

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fintech.
Founder focused on building

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great ideas, first with
evolution in the 1990s, followed

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by currency Cloud, a decade
later and now is CEO.

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And co-founder of rails are
formally rails Bank since 2016

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who are empowering a new
generation of embedded Finance

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experiences in this episode own
and I riff with Nigel on the

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foundational experiences that
push Nigel towards becoming a

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fintech Founder for the word.
Fintech even existed rebranding

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of rails Bank into rails.
ER the impact of rails has 46

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million dollars series C,
funding round and spending it on

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the right things Nigel's view on
the digital asset market and the

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difference between starting a
start-up and scaling a startup.

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All right here on money.
Never sleeps.

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All right, so Nigel.
Welcome to the show.

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Awesome to have you on.
No, thank you for the

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invitation.
It's great.

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You've been a stalwart in the
fin tech industry for the last

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last couple of decades.
So it's awesome to have you on

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for this chat and probably a
good place to start is, maybe

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just share a couple of the
foundational experiences that

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you've had that have gotten you
to the point where you are right

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now.
Yeah.

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It's really the frustrations of
if you come across something,

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you feel that can be sold being
able to then building business

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around.
That says, been a challenge of

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myself.
I do like solving problems as a

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trained engineer and got to
engineering degrees.

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And that sort of mindset is
always sort of acquisitive, and

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try to solve things and also and
found working in large

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companies, and for being not not
best sort of employee and larger

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companies.
Let's go and find something

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where you can actually change
and do something out of it.

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Helps other people either other
businesses in their Journeys as

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well.
Yeah, definitely had you been in

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an employee of a company for
that long before you started

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your first startup, when I left
you a, I was at a comically dies

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from a bigger Services business
owned by General Motors uptime.

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And that two years is good
training actually because it

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would put us through a
particular training program.

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Like I sent you used to have
Alanis and assaulting and school

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in those days and the experience
I think actually over the Liga

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and the discipline and cetera
and the processes that large

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companies sent out successful
larger companies, have I think

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was good and foundational and
then working in the financial

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markets are basically a buddy of
mine, Johnny peacock, who is a

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co-founder of the first
business?

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He was also, he dies and he
phoned me up one day saying, I'm

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leaving to go to company for
Goldman Sachs.

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And I've never heard these
people and said he got a great

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job here, working and lovely
Luther.

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And I said, look for the same
engineering maths, okay?

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20 or 30 times the money so I
then went and joined the mirror

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in the fixed income business and
then in Swiss bank come off to

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that.
So it's a is a sort of a

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transformation into there are
large organizations but in the

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capital markets businesses and
that time you didn't really

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silly working for a big company.
Cuz each trading desk was pretty

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much like an independent
business and is very sort of

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entrepreneurial, especially
Swiss bank called just today,

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call UBS.
And we went to the whole

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transformation of syntax really
doing for the move.

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The non cap them off its world.
We did that in sort of early

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1990s, when there's something
called internet appeared, and I

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looking at how you use Tech and
I use that to engage with the

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customers, very simple things.
Like an effect salesmen could be

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much more To using slack towards
resolution at that time to

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handle five or six customers,
when they could perform hand,

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just on the phone and one
customer to time, those just

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seeing how you to leverage Tech.
And we were the, I think the

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second biggest customer of NeXT
computers because of the death

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of Anguish, and I become the
IMF, essentially, and that gave

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us, oh, give out ago, the teams
met with runs, especially on

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the, the ethics options drawn,
the Chicago Board of Trade and

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others where the The trailers
are all given sip charts

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essentially or the surfaces that
you're trading on.

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And so it looks like this by if
it looks like this.

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So okay.
And so that was revolutionary

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today.
It's probably people think

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that's quite okay.
But so do all the pre-compute

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stuff and having Devin violence
that was called open step.

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Choose the dev environment on
next was completely different

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Wells, or writing software
everything down, the traditional

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Ways work the time.
So thanks to Steve Jobs.

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He revolutionized letters and
he's a man in a mid.

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Mid to late 1990s.
Wow.

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And then your first start up
from that point, was Evolution.

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And that was 96.
Yeah, this current.

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Yes.
And then Evolution we was

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working Swiss bank, cool.
And what I said, my colleague,

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everyone is working at Goldman
and they the four of us

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co-founder at once.
And they just been setting up

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the equity derivatives business,
or they didn't almelo.

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Simon and Joan Boyce came.
From Goldman, my Cayman Swiss

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bank was because this internet
thing appeared and that Swiss

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Banker.
We did the very first for a

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change trades on the sinkhole
internet and so we built a

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business around at helping front
office.

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Capital markets firms, utilize
the internet for Price

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distribution customer to
engagement with fund managers

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automation of Trades as a
straight-through processing on

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trades at Center using a in
there is prevalent in Industry

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who can think of X Fashions
change protocol and so that was

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a great company.
We built about 120, other people

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and then sold it eventually to
to be a systems and it's 200,

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but really capitalize on instead
of building websites is actually

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building the capability to trade
between organizations.

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Not just how websites and that
was all based on fix.

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Yeah, those are fixed and
various other pieces are one of

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the projects It was the very
first effect options, pricing

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tool.
That was delivered over the

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internet to customers so they
could solve price option

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structure.
They're looking at the forehand

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at they had to phone up the
cells guide cells go and go on

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the internal tool and then give
them back a price and they're

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just a label that same.
There's similar thing with

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insurance world with they made
their tools available to their

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customers.
I'm going to a real sort of how

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do you scale up your business?
Give it thumb to mind of your

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customer was before home is very
much a telephone based business.

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Gotcha, gotcha.
And then after, like, you said,

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you exit out of that to Bae
currency cloud in 2007, what was

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the impetus for getting that
started directing to?

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After I left you delusional,
strengthened to the equities

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business of jazz and rock
climbing wall and they'll just a

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clone investment bankers called
at the time.

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Correct, mine equities suspect
pool.

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They needed somebody to come in
and help him.

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Turn around equities business,
and they they took a whole like

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the whole bunch of extra spank
or people to help and that we

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turn around for my 90 million
loss business, 250 million pre

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bonus profitable business, free
bonus in 18 months because it

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was a doing stupid things.
Basically, and markets went up.

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So, if he's worried a bit of the
market going up as well, but

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when I was there, I met a guy
for shooting Park who you

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probably know they Sounded and
Thomas, and Sean set up a

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business with interest and
climbing wall called digital

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market.
And we basically had created the

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machines and everything.
I did all flow trading for

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Woody's FX government debt,
corporate that list of features

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acid options and thought that
all together and there's a sort

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of amalgamation of tech, guys.
And truly, guys Ops guys, in one

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unit, It that rather than will
be split apart and that's was

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the center of the precursor of
water became an Thomas and what

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essentially became a country
clout.

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Wow, thinking of it because
there's a video Sean did or

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which is called Amazon Bay which
is looking at the markets and

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integrity and his office and
going through the script, right

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will seem to be ours and Bay and
it's actually a quite legendary

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video now I've never seen that.
I gotta check that one out.

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We will let wilty that one up
for the show notes later on

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great.
So your experience in a

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collaborative effort with
working with a few folks that

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was digital change Partners in
2015 to 2016 and that the whole

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rails Bank idea came out of
that.

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Can you talk to tell us about
that a bit?

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Yeah we were advising a bank in
Luxembourg.

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If I had they can leverage their
infrastructure and make the

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pipes, the pipes and Sharon was
a sunk cost with them to make

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money out of those pipes.
In those pipes, about

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Connections up to switch
connections into Local payments,

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Etc, and the project, and go
anywhere, and you and the board

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and sign off on it.
But what we were trying to solve

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for was every Syntec that have
been built, sort of in the 2011,

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2012, onwards, that sort of
initial when the Syntec and

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Monica appeared in q1 2012.
So transferwise revolutes,

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currency Cloud.
All these others.

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The everybody is building the
same infrastructure and spending

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12 to 18 months doing that.
That and then we could start

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going to customer.
So we sought world one, we

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shorten Up Cycle, wine, building
infrastructure, which is where

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we went to this bank.
Got the infrastructure, put an

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API layer on it, like we do at
County cloud and make it

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available.
So we instead of working with

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that bank, we set out to build
an API LED Central Banking

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infrastructure business to
accelerate syntax and then the

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markets growing because it's
more than fintechs.

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So using some marketplaces or
sorts of Digital first companies

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and that's essentially where
it's all or came from.

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It was a failed project to bank.
That's the thing I know back in

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my days and operations and
capital markets, I came up with

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this great idea called blade
which was the business logic

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algorithmic data engine and it
went nowhere.

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It was a fantastic idea but you
know definitely a failed attempt

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and then and tell us about
specifically about rails ER what

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it is and why this is really
this sort.

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Cursive your conviction as to
the perfect thing for you to be

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working on.
So we close embedded Finance,

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experience platform.
And what that means is anybody

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wants to put a financial
experience into their customer

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journey and embed it into their
programs, their Journey,

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basically, using apis as opposed
to White Label.

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Or yes for the white label think
it's gives you the control

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whereas the the tools and the
Lego to build.

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Team wallets cards that will
Wards and also credits as well.

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And so you suddenly, you've got
the ability.

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What something that took say
Marks and Spencers building the

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marks of Spencer's bank which is
Summit several several millions

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of dollars and and basically was
we badge HSBC to inheritant

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everything.
That's bad with HSBC and your

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new ux Mabel anybody at a much
much, much lower price point and

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much, much quicker.
Icarus.

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It wasn't a two-year project.
It was two to three-month

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project to to unveil it.
So really it's of democratize

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access to putting Finance where
you've always.

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Wanted it in your use journey or
business models like kind of

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wage stream wage advancing they
prototypes on us and that four

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days out of working prototype.
And then launched in two months,

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whereas beforehand, that just
wasn't available to people that

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have to work with a bank, gets a
banking partner, all the

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different pieces and planned
Thanks going through that.

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Where was it was just, it was
sign up with us and go.

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So love inspiration, came from
Arizona AWS business because

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when we said currency Cloud, we
got data center.

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We had wrapped space.
We had to bite it letter by

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computers, that's by Rousseau
voters, yet people to manage

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those and your few million down
before you've even started,

230
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running your back Amazon, it's
your credit card, 15 minutes and

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you go daily.
Center and a few thousand bucks

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and that is the inspiration for
rails are to be able to do that.

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So data centers, just Financial
products.

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So where we've seen it to the
going now is that not just

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fintechs other businesses want
to engage with their customers

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using finance and wise Financial
what a to make Revenue out of

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it.
The you get data on what your

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customers are doing and you get
more data, especially in the

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retail World in terms of Again,
whether shopping, what's of

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think, the vine and the?
And so the, what was just to

241
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help fintechs is now expanded
out to something that pretty

242
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much any, any brand that wants
to engage better, the customer

243
00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,700
care and it can use Financial
TGT there.

244
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Well it was vastly expensive,
the other advantage over

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allowed, we allow people to run
experiments.

246
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So again back to the Lean
Startup way of doing things

247
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before.
Hand me over to.

248
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,300
So, go with HSBC to do your wine
label bank or you had to go with

249
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:43,300
a big card, implementation and
spend five year contract, one of

250
00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,500
our custom Sainsbury's,
literally three months, built a

251
00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:49,600
prototype tested, it with
customers, which is basically

252
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,800
looking open loop in the nectar
card and making Expendable

253
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device and was able to get data
and decide which is a project

254
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that we're going to go small and
scale.

255
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:03,100
So the, another side effect that
we discovered as we built a

256
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:07,200
world of is I like customers to
prototype like they've never

257
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done before and save freeing up
a large company to be able to

258
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like do the Amazon two thousand
dollars in the credit card.

259
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:20,500
Almost to do something that they
can take data rate and they'll

260
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get their Capital allocation
internally to be able to build

261
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product and no jobs going to CD
your career spans.

262
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I suppose fintech before was
fintech to a degree, but a lot

263
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,200
of it obviously.
Is that infrastructure piece?

264
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:38,000
So I suppose, you know would it
seems like a natural almost

265
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,400
progression to the point, no, a
Trails or that you you

266
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,400
understand the pain on that
side, in terms of infrastructure

267
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,100
and the pipes in the plumbing
piece and you're taking that

268
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,100
pain away from the customer like
that.

269
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:50,600
Being able to have someone
prototype something in a short

270
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space of time without the
massive expenditure I presume.

271
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,700
Like obviously there's huge
opportunity then for that to

272
00:15:56,708 --> 00:15:58,500
scale.
Giving you're able to do that at

273
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speed for for companies and lots
of different sectors.

274
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,600
Sure.
It's also giving commonality Us

275
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different regions because the
infrastructure is different as a

276
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radar or different payments and
methodologies of payment schemes

277
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etcetera.
And so Lori.

278
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:16,600
We set out if we again
inspiration from AWS, I'd

279
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,200
arrested pretty much common
around the world, even though

280
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,100
your data rate and your
processing may be sitting in

281
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:24,800
Luxembourg.
Also not enough swaggin in

282
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,200
Frankfurt, torn and doubling
will San Francisco.

283
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:34,900
So the the we really did set out
to see if I common API Hide all

284
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:40,000
the complexity hives that he had
to know industry terminology,

285
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,100
which is not very exciting or
interesting to people.

286
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,500
So you could do a very simple
thing, which is issue an

287
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:48,700
account, the seed, money into
their account and send money

288
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:50,900
from that apparent
programmatically and it's super

289
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:54,700
simple and consistently whether
it's on euros and step over its

290
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:58,500
you can use a faster payment of
backs or Swift or whatever the

291
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:02,100
different sort of bank transfer
mechanisms and then to back to

292
00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:05,400
cards as well.
So car Make it super simple

293
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,400
issue a card.
Spend money.

294
00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:10,200
I can't.
And then you control the cars

295
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,800
with reset pin and other
functionality.

296
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:19,200
And if you wonder, if we saw as
the industry was so complex and

297
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,900
frightening to people to engage
with it, sort of people thought,

298
00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:25,500
well it must be expensive or
west to be.

299
00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:29,600
It's must be exclusive.
And so democratizing it through

300
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,000
simple apis, that will be called
human Centric design.

301
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:36,500
If you issue an account, it will
call it shit on the count of

302
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,900
call.
It send y send money rather than

303
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,900
saying that the UK faster
payment or that's a separate

304
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:45,000
whatever step to payment, I
don't care.

305
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,100
That Swanson, I won't send you
as a way to be.

306
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,200
That's what the you ATI does.
So that's, that's right.

307
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,200
Where I think the, the other
value, we do not.

308
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:59,500
Everybody's got apis now and the
Art of the API, we learn to come

309
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:02,300
to clients.
When they my original CTO that

310
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,100
I'm Nick, borre has worked at
all.

311
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,500
It's painful.
We both said the same trading

312
00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:10,500
floor was the thing.
We cracked the probably partly

313
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,700
by Design partly by luck smoke.
Everything is creating apis that

314
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:17,200
people understood how to use
either?

315
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,400
If you want to develop because
you can realize it's called,

316
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,000
This is the hook these things
together and give them good doc

317
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,900
out.
You can get functionality out,

318
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,500
only three people up and then
lots of other tools were

319
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,600
available after that to be a
blog post from and everything

320
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,400
else.
And so suddenly Only this API

321
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,600
economy.
Just we just and we were part of

322
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,700
that, just Again by luck by
welding this thought we were so

323
00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:44,900
forward-thinking node, we just
was a cool thing about it.

324
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:48,600
Is it any kind of, you know, you
make your own lock, right?

325
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,200
But right place, right time,
right industry, right?

326
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,600
Stage of technological
development, the world, where

327
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,100
your inspiration, and the idea
is that you wanted to pursue for

328
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,600
the financial world that the
technology was available for you

329
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,100
to do that.
Right?

330
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:06,400
When I think it was was it Elon
Musk know?

331
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,500
It was Mark Cuban.
That bought broadcast.com back

332
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:13,200
in the 90s before Broadband was
actually available for

333
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,400
streaming, right?
Imagine if it was, how would

334
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,400
that have looked different and
was it that, you know, did you

335
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,700
have to force this at all in
terms?

336
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,200
Or was it, you know?
Hey, the Technology's there, we

337
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,400
can creatively assemble it in a
way that is actually going to

338
00:19:29,408 --> 00:19:32,500
create tons of value, or did,
was there anything that they?

339
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:37,800
Like I said, like the Ed you did
have to, Force there is also

340
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,700
much about full Senate because
we just thought about Twitter's

341
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:45,600
going to make the eye and tons
of people can use it, wake up

342
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,700
Finance, be like that was the
General thinking.

343
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,700
And so we just created an API
layer and then figured out

344
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:55,800
afterwards.
How do we connect in the banking

345
00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:59,600
industry, infrastructure up to
the lilacs, I do what we

346
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,600
launched to encounter our
spacious stubbed our API that

347
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,100
too.
With sold the idea to one of the

348
00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:08,400
school transfer lies and one was
for Pedro bank.

349
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,200
And and the guys behind feel of
a very old person friends.

350
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:16,300
So they wanted multi-currency
accounts of the time so do we

351
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,900
can do that violent API so he
gave him a pi.

352
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:21,100
This up as fantastic, very Pi
missile.

353
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:23,200
Right now, let's figure out and
touch.

354
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,000
You build it and the scenes, we
had a vague idea.

355
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:31,100
And that, that sort of the fact
that the customer like the

356
00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:35,000
proposition and like the fact
that they can see, Simply

357
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,200
integrate an account into those
existing infrastructure without

358
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,000
talking to the bank, or going to
the the all the technology for

359
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,800
banks and was all, like, file
transfer, sci-fi stuff, batch

360
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,200
processing stuff, they loves it.
And so that's right.

361
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,900
Then spider tattoo gun, build a
bill, that would back end of it,

362
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:58,600
into into Barclays and the into
Seb for FX rates and stuff for

363
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,100
come.
See cloud and ourselves in in

364
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,100
males Bank who was we built
initially on starting brain?

365
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,800
And credit me to our in France
and then we move directly to the

366
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,500
clear directly with the bank of
England and clear directly with

367
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:14,000
some new European Central
bank's.

368
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:17,400
So the vector sum of knowledge,
which we learn to count.

369
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,200
In fact, we basically just
applied in rails are just for

370
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,200
different use cases, got it mix
lot of Science.

371
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,700
Now, obviously, you're at a
different stage now with rails,

372
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,500
ER, and that you've just
recently completed a big series

373
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:34,700
see of 46 million dollars and
with that being 20, six million

374
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:37,600
in equity and 20 million in
debt, right?

375
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,500
You know, last year you raise 70
million a year before you race

376
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,100
37 million.
And you know with any raised

377
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,200
that you do especially a big
Ray, is that the hardest thing

378
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,200
to do is to spend it on the
right things.

379
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,900
Do you think you've had any
takeaways from the last one?

380
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:56,600
That would you know, maybe the
last one or two that might

381
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,000
inform, how you deploy this
series?

382
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,600
See if 46 million especially
with a part of that now being in

383
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,800
debt.
Any any Challenges that present.

384
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,800
Sure.
I think it's the column world

385
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,000
markets and macroeconomic
conditions.

386
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,300
And everything really need to
focus the Mind especially

387
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:20,100
because with expanded over into
Singapore and Australia and

388
00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:24,000
we've been closing those
businesses down because the

389
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,900
investment returns were looking
far too far too long out and we

390
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,600
news has a double down in UK and
Europe.

391
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,200
So a very much investing in you.
You are new and just improving

392
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,300
the product, making some of the
processes Etc, more robust

393
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,600
think.
In this downtown Market, it's a

394
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:48,300
good opportunity to look back
and say what are the things that

395
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,100
need improving behind the scenes
because of growing so fast, we

396
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:54,600
let some processes and be less
than optimal.

397
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,500
It's my time to invest in those
processes, so you can make

398
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,400
things scalable again, so,
bizarrely enough.

399
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,700
It's downturn can also be
effective at four, See you lined

400
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:09,100
up with like thing as well.
Okay, yeah, cuz we typically

401
00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,400
hear that once you hit series be
you realize what you built isn't

402
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,400
scalable and it's held together
by bubble gum and sticky tape,

403
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,100
right?
And that you need to actually

404
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:22,700
spend some time, you know,
rebuilding and that well you at

405
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:26,500
series see that, you know,
continuing to iterate on that.

406
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,900
Do you ever find yourself now?
Even still?

407
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:30,700
And I know this probably
happened when you're in the

408
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:34,000
capital markets but that where,
you know, you've got a great big

409
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,100
Plan on doing something at the
infrastructure level, but then a

410
00:23:37,108 --> 00:23:40,100
big new business opportunity
with perhaps a big new customer

411
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,900
comes up and they there specific
things that they want.

412
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,000
And that then derails, your your
own strategic build in that,

413
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600
where you put the customers
bigger needs.

414
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,800
On top of that, is the rails are
business at a level where you

415
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,100
could have one big perhaps new
Revenue opportunity priority

416
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:03,600
cause you to kind of take a
other ideas, take a backseat.

417
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,200
What?
We built the the portfolio of

418
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,900
customers.
So I largest customer and it's a

419
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,100
any about 67 percent of our
revenues.

420
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,600
And so, the reason for that is
what the lantern County, glad

421
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,500
where we did that a little bit
was you've got to build a

422
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:22,800
feature that is the mantha
product companies Isabel the

423
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:28,000
feature that majority of the,
the market will use and we've a

424
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,400
lucky to have a joined as Chief
product officer just been

425
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,300
promoted to achieve offering
officer.

426
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:37,400
Stewart to Gregory who spent six
and a half years of transfer

427
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800
whites.
And transferwise is a very

428
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,400
premium product business, eight
days, super focus on a feature.

429
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,500
That's Souls problems for the
customers and their use of other

430
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:52,100
data from us, poor tickets, all
these other things.

431
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,500
That if we improve this, we go
big return for the customer and

432
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:57,700
also Cuts us at what cost down
massively.

433
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,500
And so, that's the, the, the
mindset we thought into we've a

434
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:05,000
much focus on.
These are things that Super

435
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,500
impactful because customers
always ask for tons and tons and

436
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:11,900
tons of features when you
actually look at usage or

437
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:15,700
features, you'll see it's queued
up to only 20% features.

438
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,100
I have a massive usage and
having a look at that tail

439
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,200
feature intuitive in might think
that's going to close the

440
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,600
seller.
It won't the the usage of be

441
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,500
over here.
That's a real nice to have and

442
00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:30,700
go on the road map and part of
the art of of also and a product

443
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:34,300
company is having a clear
roadmap Map.

444
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:39,600
That's varied riddle by feedback
because we think we can sit

445
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,900
around a table and think these
Go.

446
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:42,700
The actual killer features over
your love them.

447
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,300
A lot them.
We launch them and you paid a

448
00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:50,100
lot investment into it and load
the use of it because that's the

449
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:52,100
mindset.
You and you stop company, got to

450
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:55,200
sort of be like that.
I have a bit of a vision and you

451
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,400
really like to switch the mode
as the customer drives

452
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,400
everything.
And it's not just the customer

453
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,800
who shout aloud us.
It's looking at what Pain points

454
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,500
for really solving for you and
keep doing that and doing that

455
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:11,100
again.
And that's it sort of a switch

456
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:14,500
coming back to your series A B
and C sort of questioning but

457
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,700
where things change that's a
real switch to after to the

458
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:22,700
series a you've really got to
get into not the temptation to

459
00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:24,500
go into.
Oh my God there's a big wrecking

460
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:26,800
opportunity here, all passed
over there.

461
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:31,300
You got to keep going.
You're, you're slow path going

462
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:33,900
forward.
Because one of the big fears is

463
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:38,600
the The sort of bear hug client
that is sort of 60 to 70 percent

464
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,900
of revenues and other think
squares of massive business and

465
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,700
Marquette has their biggest
customers square.

466
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,100
But it's that went that's
massive systemic risk.

467
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:52,700
And so we planned, I said lots
of customers.

468
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,700
Generally you can serve as the
market because you're focusing

469
00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:00,500
on everybody as opposed to just
11 custody of lightning made

470
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:04,700
Yeah, I guess longevity breeds
consistency, right?

471
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,700
And in the same vein then Nigel
have you because obviously

472
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:09,600
you're a dick, the business is
at a different stage.

473
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,900
Now would you say the skills
that you've needed or that you

474
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:18,100
need at this point, as CEO are
very different, have they grown

475
00:27:18,100 --> 00:27:20,600
or change it or they have
change, obviously, but o, have

476
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,400
how is that change being in
terms of the skill set from, you

477
00:27:23,408 --> 00:27:27,600
know, this the seed series, a
mindset to know a Serie C in a

478
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,200
very different mindset on skill.
Set I presume as CEO, how we

479
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,700
find out how he found are
changing.

480
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:36,700
You've got to let go and let
highly competent.

481
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,300
People just get on with their
job, and try not to meddle,

482
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,400
because it's see whenever he's
around sort of C in series, a,

483
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,200
everybody's hands to the pump
doing everything.

484
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,000
You were the only legal
contracts you're coding.

485
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,500
You getting on testing relating
field, vectors feature

486
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:55,100
everything.
And so you've got to step back

487
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,800
that you got highly confident
people to, to get on and learn

488
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,700
the business line that pop a
business Builder.

489
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,900
Cause of business Discord over
agreement of his a direction.

490
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,800
And while do you think you can
do everything your, to like,

491
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,900
something isn't going right to
vote to give them the space to

492
00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:15,300
get their way as opposed to your
way.

493
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:17,900
So it's a different way of
looking at things.

494
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,300
It is it pales in comparison is
0 and mentioned, before we got

495
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,500
out are we're both at the seed
the Irish seed, fund launch

496
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,000
event that middlegame Ventures
had and they had 18 Corbett

497
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,800
there.
CEO of way flyer and they're

498
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,400
obviously, you know, they went
through right up to series see

499
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,700
in the matter of three years.
They move pretty quickly and

500
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,800
given that their product, which
is are you familiar with way

501
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,200
flyer?
No, no, yeah, they have this

502
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,700
great Trojan Horse, which is an
e-commerce analytics platform

503
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:53,700
and that once that's embedded
that they use the data there to

504
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:57,400
determine the risk profile of
these businesses and whether or

505
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,300
not, they want to lend them
working capital because that's

506
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:01,900
one of the biggest Needs of
e-commerce.

507
00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:05,000
Companies is working capital
because of the gap between the

508
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,600
supply side and the demand side.
So they only launched in 2019

509
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,600
2020.
I think and what the founder

510
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,800
said who they're, you know, the
clearly still thinking of a

511
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,900
series a type of mindset.
Aidan Corbett, was that your job

512
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:23,900
as CEO is to go stick your nose
into what everybody else is

513
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,200
doing?
Because if they're not doing it

514
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,000
your way, they're doing it, the
wrong way, which is obviously

515
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,900
pales in comparison to Where you
are right now.

516
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,900
We're you know, you've built the
business scaling it.

517
00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:38,400
Now you've hired some really
smart people that you want to

518
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,200
just, you know, you hired smart
people for a reason, right?

519
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,600
But it earlier Stage Company may
not yet.

520
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,700
Be at that point, where they've
hired a whole bunch of people to

521
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:47,300
be able to run the business
every day, right?

522
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,900
It is, it's going to be, is this
a business that runs every day

523
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:57,000
and that's where it got started
early and take a step back, as I

524
00:29:57,008 --> 00:29:59,800
say to rebuild some of your Tech
stack as well.

525
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,300
So yeah.
The good thing is if you don't

526
00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:06,100
good engineering to my left, I
have some very good Engineers.

527
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,100
He don't have this sort of
release once a month, type of

528
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:11,200
mindset.
The he gets like the Google and

529
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,400
Facebook and of the got multiple
releases day everyday and

530
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,600
increment features going out.
So that's been able to do that

531
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,000
in a social services where
doesn't matter of Twitter fans

532
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:27,600
tweet on the Giants and to
change the world but if you lose

533
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,700
your money people to people get
fussy and things.

534
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:37,500
So it's a good liquor that bit
guys have platform for that.

535
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:45,900
Let me take a minute to tell you
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536
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537
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538
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540
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541
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542
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543
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550
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551
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552
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553
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:41,600
You are.
Ric, entr, I x.com.

554
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,000
What do you think is harder that
early stage of getting the

555
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,300
business started?
The zero to one phase or the

556
00:31:52,308 --> 00:31:56,600
scaling phase scaling is way
harder zeros.

557
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,900
Ones relatively easy because
it's, it's a relatively easy.

558
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,000
It's getting something out there
and getting your first customers

559
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:09,300
is nothing easier than scaling
scaling as a lot not harder.

560
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,700
Yeah, yeah.
Well, they say 95 percent of

561
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:16,100
companies do not make it to
Serie C, right?

562
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:19,600
So, you know, once you do get to
that you know you start scaling

563
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,100
obviously at a and so you're
going to stumble between a and C

564
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,800
most likely.
And there you go because you

565
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,300
either sink or they get
acquired, you know, 95 95

566
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:30,900
percent do not make it
seriously.

567
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,400
Wow, yeah, doesn't matter.
Yeah yeah, absolutely.

568
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,000
So Nigel, a question for you
actually because most values the

569
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,300
chance when we Have the
opportunity to talk to we on the

570
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:44,400
podcast.
Recently, myself and peace were

571
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,500
talking about with fundraising
round by Nova credits, which is

572
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:52,000
a US company connects into
credit bureaus, a district, win

573
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,500
some money from HSBC, and it got
us thinking about fintechs as a

574
00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:58,700
kind of public utility.
So you know, rails is probably

575
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:00,600
really good example.
You're, you know, you're

576
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,600
embedded Finance solution which
you have about 300 customers or

577
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,900
something.
At what point do you become

578
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:09,400
structurally important to an
industry, you know.

579
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,000
And I'm thinking A of players,
like yourselves and bigger

580
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,500
players that you almost need to
stay in private hands as opposed

581
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:20,300
to strategically aligned with
one, you know, Banker One

582
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,800
Financial Services Company
because does that take away from

583
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,700
the value then that you're
bringing to the entire industry.

584
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:31,000
It's good question I think is
better to have private investors

585
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,600
and so we have a couple of banks
in our studies.

586
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,100
Small slices on our cap table.
But I do think Independence is

587
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:42,100
is good because Doesn't secure
your you're thinking.

588
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:46,900
Plus it's the decide to actually
exit that business and banks of

589
00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:50,100
a strong reputation of exiting
businesses.

590
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,100
That leaves, you high and dry
and we found Rosa County Cloud

591
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:58,000
one, major US Bank loved us.
And we're doing lots of their

592
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,700
payments infrastructure.
Back to Poor Side Effects, over

593
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:05,900
to the liquidity and some
suddenly, a spreadsheet said

594
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,400
known, and they decided to exit
this business.

595
00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:14,100
It's so we love that sort of
the, the hardware being

596
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:16,900
dependent on some of even if
they were strategic investor.

597
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,199
So the I think Independence as
usual.

598
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,000
And hence, that's why we've gone
directly to the bank of England,

599
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,400
directly to Visa directly to
MasterCard directly into, so

600
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,199
through yours as well.
Well, then can operate with the

601
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,500
third party under the table.
We do in the u.s. because of

602
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:33,100
radioactive environments,
different.

603
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,400
And that, that in pens, I think
does give us some some control

604
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,400
of our own destiny.
It's, we can control our destiny

605
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,400
end up wins.
We don't impacts our customers

606
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:48,199
because that US Bank pulling out
meant that transferwise

607
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,800
basically lost.
I got lost their opponents by

608
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,199
the payments runs as well.
Let ported over quickly to

609
00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:58,100
another provider where had
massive with back to a

610
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:02,600
transferwise on a couple of days
and we can't really we can't do.

611
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,100
That is browser.
That was beckoned currency.

612
00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:09,400
Glad Gotcha.
Gotcha, that makes sense.

613
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,300
Shifting gears a little bit and
this came from going down a bit

614
00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:15,900
of a Nigel.
Verdun rabbit hole before this

615
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,000
interview and and trying to
figure you out, okay?

616
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:26,400
And seeing that you mentioned
earlier about Lego blocks and

617
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,600
that you've got a Lego block,
that is AWS and with rails are

618
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,100
trying to make the layer.
On top of that, the financial

619
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:39,900
are on top of that, a bit of a
Lego block and I am a student of

620
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:43,100
fintech a student at
decentralized Finance, crypto

621
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,200
and blockchain.
And I was looking for something,

622
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,100
something having to do between
Nigel, burden, and digital

623
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:53,100
assets, and I had hard time
finding it and, you know, but I

624
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:55,000
did read your thoughts on the
metaverse.

625
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:57,800
And the point of mentioning this
is that because one of the

626
00:35:57,808 --> 00:36:03,400
biggest topics within D Phi is
composability, is this ability

627
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,300
to build on top of others and
others build on top of you and

628
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,000
everything being Open source and
be able to go to GitHub, and get

629
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,300
it and actually, then build
build on top of that.

630
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:14,100
And that everything only gets
built once in others, just build

631
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:17,200
on top of the same thing.
So I did read your thoughts on

632
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,300
metaverse on N FTS and buying
digital goods and metaverse

633
00:36:20,300 --> 00:36:23,700
experiences, right.
And I saw that and you stress a

634
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:27,200
couple of times in that post the
important role of real money in

635
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,800
in metaverse and Owen.
And I were talking about Meadows

636
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,300
metaverse earlier this week with
a bit of a you know,

637
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:36,900
tongue-in-cheek moment on
Meadows, metaverse mass and

638
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:40,100
Seeing how they're bringing that
in is a bit of a private closed

639
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:44,400
metaverse, okay.
And, you know, hearing you talk

640
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,000
about real money, the metaverse
I can obviously understand your

641
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,400
view and obviously the context
of when you were talking about

642
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,500
that I think was in that matter
of being at a conference, right?

643
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:56,000
So makes total sense but given
your positive views on the

644
00:36:56,008 --> 00:36:58,900
potential to crypto and the
middle ground and regulations

645
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:02,300
thought that I saw you Sharon
City, am with that letter that

646
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:05,000
you did.
What about giving your customers

647
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,000
who were maybe pursuing a matter
of strategy.

648
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,600
Te G that ability to conduct
Commerce and crypto assets.

649
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,100
Have you thought about that much
so much?

650
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:16,200
The metaverse is driven by
Gaming and in gaming there's

651
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,400
monetizing in-game rewards
usability to offload those all

652
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,400
this stuff is very nascent
though you know and and that

653
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,600
it's early early days.
But any thoughts on that area?

654
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,200
One of my concerns is say
there's a big sort of movements

655
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,700
and that's a bit coin and crypto
Bitcoin for example will solve

656
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:41,600
the International payments.
The numbers attacks transmitted

657
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,300
seven trillion dollars a day
institutionally, I think is

658
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:50,300
about 350 billion of liquidity
or something else in Bitcoin

659
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:54,500
globally, half of that's lost.
So, they just have a liquidity

660
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:58,000
are over the past two more
liquidity to service that tub

661
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,200
market.
So, there's that side of those

662
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,400
areas.
I think there's reality but most

663
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,500
of our customers at the moment
have really wanted just War

664
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:13,100
money, simply the money and
we've talked to us ETO about

665
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:16,800
fools are for one use case,
we're looking at is funding

666
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,600
credit card receivables and at
the moment, you know, I got to

667
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,000
get a warehouse credit line is
turned up the fill that and they

668
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,100
take it out of that Securities
market.

669
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:31,200
So that paper out and it's quite
a cumbersome process and as any

670
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,200
open to a few.
So you've got three laps

671
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,400
handles, you've got to be
experienced personally at the

672
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:36,900
line to get the lining of my
spirit.

673
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:41,200
Us and so it's quite difficult.
So, we're looking at defy

674
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,000
networks of liquidity pools.
I've been able to place a single

675
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,300
credit card, receivable in a
liquidity.

676
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:51,200
Put some way and the at the
moment, the infrastructures

677
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,400
there, there, there's various
pools, you connect up to, but

678
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,600
I'm seeing got to wait to see
some of how these say liquidity

679
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,900
pools on the defy networks, go
through matter.

680
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:07,100
Crashes, for example, and these
have Black Swan events, It's

681
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:10,800
because I think the this massive
potential because you can

682
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,100
disintermediated Capital markets
and by going direct to the

683
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:17,700
consumer and consumables that
that align to certain risk and

684
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:20,800
they'll buy that receivable.
I don't think we're there yet.

685
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,800
I think there's lots of great
experimentation out in Bitcoin.

686
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,300
Has been a phenomenal.
What I call an experiment

687
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:31,600
because of that was it's also
tradable digital asset versus

688
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,200
nothing backing it but was
volatility is our people trade

689
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,700
it.
But when you saw connecting

690
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,200
things, Like Central Bank as a
real money from central banks

691
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,700
and others and making that
digital.

692
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:46,600
This whole, this whole 10 years
of service perriman and see its

693
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,800
campaign, massive dividends,
because I've seen some downturns

694
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,000
in credit crunches of seeing the
current markets probably even

695
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,200
worse than the credit Crunch and
so the special.

696
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,600
So volatility is going nuts and
so victim, worked for area.

697
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:04,900
So I think we're in a big
massive supporter of it but it's

698
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:09,800
still early days, it's you.
Came out for the prayers for

699
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,300
those people.
That remember those a again I

700
00:40:14,308 --> 00:40:18,000
know Marc Andreessen obviously
and now where is the bulk of

701
00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:19,700
Andreessen Horowitz investing
going.

702
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,800
It's defilement was.
Yeah absolutely.

703
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,800
So any thoughts to be that 10
year ahead drives and from

704
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,400
investing in it to take a
somewhat.

705
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:34,100
So in a sense you lucky enough
to meet Tim berners-lee Dover de

706
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:35,200
Gaulle.
Cool.

707
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,300
That's thanked him for his work
in there. 290, Tim berners-lee

708
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:44,200
folks, for those who don't know
that individual who we can all,

709
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,700
thank you for creating the
internet, right?

710
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,600
Or the, the modern day.
So I think we want to cuss some

711
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,000
lapis this V5 world.
This whole nft thing has just

712
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,300
been quarters of name but it's
just really a contractor.

713
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,200
Yeah.
Italy is a her people refer to

714
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,300
it.
Whether others like it or not as

715
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:06,800
a backpack of data on a token.
I prefer.

716
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,200
Or is this a secure data
container on a token?

717
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:12,400
Yeah but you know I think
Bitcoin like you said Bitcoin

718
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,300
park it right Bitcoin is its own
thing and I think it's going to

719
00:41:15,308 --> 00:41:17,300
stand the test of time as its
own thing.

720
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:21,500
You've got the rest of the whole
crypto asset space and the

721
00:41:21,508 --> 00:41:23,600
theorem being obviously a key
tool.

722
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,900
And you know Network utility and
the ability to build on top of

723
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,200
that the composability that
aetherium offers is you know is

724
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,400
significant and I think what
I've been seeing a lot of is

725
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,800
what we call the defy mullet so
syntek up front.

726
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Find the back, right?
Like business up front party in

727
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,100
the back, right?
I never had a mullet so and

728
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:45,600
where it's crypto rails in the
back.

729
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,200
And it's not generally anyone
trying to move Bitcoin, it's

730
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,500
table coins it's USD.
See it's issued by Circle who

731
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,800
from all intents and signals
seem to want to become a

732
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,600
regulated.
Financial institution is whether

733
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,700
or not the SEC will allow them
to do that or not the SEC, but

734
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:05,900
the US Regulators in general.
And I think, you know, glad to

735
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,400
hear that you've got this in the
corner of your minds and that,

736
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,000
you know, you've got an
appreciation for the space as

737
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,100
well because it's let's say yes,
they've got to get out of them.

738
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:20,500
Is there's little these
evangelists that blockchain will

739
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,900
change the world.
The Maxis, the Bitcoin

740
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:24,800
maximalist.
I mean, you know, Nick Carter

741
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,000
from Castle Island, Ventures
took a whole bunch of crap in

742
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,400
the last few months because he
kind of disability disassociated

743
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,200
himself from the Bitcoin Max.
He's just going to toxic, it's

744
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,700
too volatile, right?
So it's a wonderful First

745
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:40,900
incantation of a crypto asset.
It's fantastic.

746
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,800
And it's totally decentralized
from day one, the group that was

747
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,700
Satoshi Nakamoto.
Not the individual, but the

748
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:49,600
group, you know, thank you
because the world needed that

749
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:51,300
most.
The world says, thank you are

750
00:42:51,308 --> 00:42:54,900
not like a dude Tim berners-lee
but, you know, we're I think

751
00:42:54,900 --> 00:43:00,300
we're in a good place.
There is also look at the this

752
00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:03,400
whole thing to say of and
regulator has of own

753
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,800
decentralized.
Nobody owns it all this time.

754
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,900
I think I think if you look at
the infrastructure it has which

755
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:15,500
is ability to essentially create
a transaction, you've got the

756
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:19,300
history in it and therefore
specially say it is your Central

757
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:22,900
Bank digital currencies.
Yeah because you got all the

758
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:25,700
provenance and your history
fraud and money laundering.

759
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:27,500
Is it suddenly becomes quite
difficult?

760
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000
It is that because you got very
sort of ready to be payload as

761
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,700
part of such a good quote, by
the NSC, whatever.

762
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:36,800
But the so I think it has huge
huge.

763
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,900
Potential but starts get out of
the city of that.

764
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:44,300
They think it's people trying to
destabilize countries yet me.

765
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:48,500
I know.
I know, I know we talked earlier

766
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:51,600
again before we got an air about
Chris Adams vac and shout-out to

767
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:52,900
Chris.
He's a friend.

768
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,400
And he said last year after 70
million dollar raised in 2021,

769
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:02,100
he said I speak to dozens of
Founders every week and I've

770
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:06,400
rarely gone through a week where
a company doesn't tell me that

771
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,100
they are.
Are working with rails.

772
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:11,000
ER, obvious said, rails bank at
the time, but can you talk about

773
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,200
the benefit of having someone
like Chris on your cap table

774
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,500
know?
Chris is great because he's both

775
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:20,900
investor and the next operator
and he deeply understands

776
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:22,900
companies.
And ridiculous stands

777
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:26,500
entrepreneurs mindsets and
deeply understands his

778
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:30,300
philosophy of who we invest him
and so he's a great sounding

779
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:32,100
board a great net worth to are
a.

780
00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:36,800
He's deeply understands how to
work with Founders to go.

781
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,700
Better outcomes and not be
judgmental and stuff.

782
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:45,400
So it's a, he's quite a unique
person as great as in Europe

783
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:46,900
was.
There's quite a lot, of course,

784
00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:51,500
I was back in the US but having
Chris hero in those American but

785
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:54,300
he he's living here.
He's in Europe, has a new core

786
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:58,700
system was fintech.
Angel investor in the top votive

787
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,400
was of last year the year
before.

788
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:04,200
Yeah, so for the ecosystem
suppose, it's good also going to

789
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,600
other in the ecosystem.
Now post-transfer Wise and the

790
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,500
colleague, Stephen Stephen.
And for example, is that Aunt

791
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,100
kunti Cloud, all coming as X
operators and that sounds very

792
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:20,500
selves well to the come out of
there because one of the thing

793
00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:24,700
observations of the European
Venture Wilders as a lot of X

794
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:28,400
fund managers and x-coordinates
announces its accountants and

795
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,400
everything working in that very
ecosystem, where as there aren't

796
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,800
enough founder, led the, we've
got a Tonica as well as FanDuel

797
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:43,200
But this the I think the US has
a real sound of mentality within

798
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,400
the money because they're
technically the money.

799
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,100
Then I were investing and giving
and also taking the 10-year

800
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,800
Vision where some of the other
funds don't really have that low

801
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,700
vision.
So the crystals back is a sort

802
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:02,000
of the is the sort of person we
need in Europe, and in this

803
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,800
market, superb guy?
Yeah.

804
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,600
Yeah it definitely is.
We definitely need More of him.

805
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,900
There's another one, like the
Jacksons.

806
00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:11,600
Another good one.
Is he known mr.

807
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,200
CEO of Skype.
Okay, the followed of Angel

808
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,800
Investments is and and in the
equipped and defy World, he's

809
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,600
very, very active definitely,
definitely.

810
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:26,100
All right, cool, we're at the
point of time in the podcast.

811
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:29,700
Were own Fitzgerald likes to ask
his favorite question that we

812
00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:32,700
ask everybody at this point of
the podcast Nigel own.

813
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,900
Would you like to go ahead?
Put yes I do know.

814
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:36,700
She'll tell us something people
won't expect it.

815
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:40,400
It's one of my better judgment.
You went to pick her up from the

816
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,900
accident at all, but I also work
on mentoring, the English rugby

817
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:49,500
team and two, that were closely
will calling on that word trans

818
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,400
0.
Because the Mobi players post

819
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,200
rugby they on looked after in
England, they are in New

820
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,700
Zealand.
Have a whole thing called the

821
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:02,100
network and wolves.
No, setting up the Z England's

822
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,800
Network pest.
Copy the guys are doing really

823
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,500
well and so lovely.
Having passion Willa life, I

824
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:11,700
never played any and it sort of
high standards or anything but

825
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:14,400
it's more the philosophy behind
the fun behind it.

826
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,700
The engagement throughout
something like no knowledge,

827
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:20,100
been advising things team.
That's awesome.

828
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:23,200
Cool, that's awesome.
And have you ever hired any

829
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,100
x-ray players?
Yeah, I have many times.

830
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,500
Very good, Claire green, one,
religion, people in Wales. 35

831
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,400
caps for England in the women's
Team Awesome.

832
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,400
Very cool.
We have all the X.

833
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:41,500
Irish Rugby players investing in
fintech, not all of them.

834
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:44,200
Two of them, Rob Kearney and
Jamie He Slipped.

835
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,300
Oh, yeah.
Are both investing in fintech

836
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:49,200
here at Ireland.
I see, Rob Carney kicking around

837
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,900
elk Stone external partners
because couple of weeks.

838
00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:54,200
So you said they do doing pubs
as well.

839
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,500
So, you know, gastropubs as well
as investing in fintech.

840
00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:00,800
No better combination, right?
Very good.

841
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,000
We'll listen, Nigel, it's been a
pleasure having you on the show

842
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,000
really great conversation great
chat You are a mountain of

843
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,700
knowledge and an awesome
combination of fantastic

844
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:13,100
experience.
In the startup scale up space

845
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,100
and fintech.
So thank you, thank you for the

846
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:19,300
time and hopefully see I'm
right, I mean Dublin next week,

847
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:23,200
it's a stock.
So very cool for yeah, we'll

848
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,600
definitely will, definitely drop
in there.

849
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,400
Thanks, Nigel.
Thank you.

850
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:36,800
That does it for this week,
folks.

851
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,100
Thanks a nodule burden for
opening up his mind, to help us

852
00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:41,200
figure out why he does.
What he does links to get in

853
00:48:41,207 --> 00:48:43,700
touch with Nigel and learn more
about rails are in the show

854
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:45,700
notes on our website money never
sleeps that.

855
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,800
I, so check us out online.
Also, thanks to Conan Brophy,

856
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,400
from create sound for mixing and
editing.

857
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,300
This episode Conan is an
excellent medium and to get in

858
00:48:53,300 --> 00:48:55,100
touch with when you're thinking
about launching your own

859
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:57,500
podcast.
As for me, I'm an early stage,

860
00:48:57,500 --> 00:48:59,900
startup investor focused on
where fintech meets crypto and

861
00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:01,900
crypto meets web.
Three flights to talk to me

862
00:49:01,900 --> 00:49:04,000
about your business, drop me a
line on info at money.

863
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,900
Never sleeps that, I I finally
till next time, thanks for

864
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:07,800
listening.
See you