206: Sure Shot | Dee Coakley and Boundless

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Hey there, I'm Pete, Townsend in
this is money, never sleeps.

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We look inside the minds of
entrepreneurs, and at the

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crossover of startups,
Enterprise Finance, technology

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and Life, as we know it on the
show this week, we've got I'm

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Deke, okay?
And I'm co-founder and CEO of

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benglis D.
Founded boundless in Ireland,

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2019 with Emily castles.
And boundless is the operating

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system for your international
team.

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In short boundless is Global
Employment, Made Simple

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benefits, share options, and
payroll.

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And one need platform in this
episode D riffs, with Owen,

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Fitzgerald and me on the
snowball effect of the diverse

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International experiences and
relationships that made

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boundless such a no-brainer for
her to co-found the shifting

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mindsets and societal changes
that have made remote working

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and distributed International
Teams.

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Scalable reality.
Now, D is thinking about the

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next Next steps to grow the
boundless business.

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So let's just get on with it
with d, Coakley from boundless.

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All right, here on money, never
sleeps.

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Thanks for coming on to the
show.

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It's great to do this with you.
I'm so glad we met thanks to

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Jean Murphy when we had that
Dublin startup ecosystem,

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pre-Christmas gathering at
Izakaya.

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The gene came back from New York
and he said, let's pull everyone

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together.
So Gene is a an Uber connector.

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He's great at bringing people
together.

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I've got so many ways cancer
him.

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Over the years, he is big big
shout-out to Gene.

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He was actually one of the few
that we did a video podcast with

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way back in the day about Third,
and ten episodes ago and I saw

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him when I was in New York last
week.

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Do you do that transatlantic
trip much D to New York?

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I do.
And I'm actually very close to

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Gene and his wife, Jess.
So, there are there, my people

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when I'm in New York, I stay at
a hotel that's on their block

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and I usually see quite a bit of
them.

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I only go a couple of times a
year.

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Last year, I did a trip to
Atlanta went to San Francisco

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and to to New York, but I don't
spend a huge amount of time in

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the US, but I love New York.
Yeah, spend.

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I'm hoping to spend maybe a
couple of months there this year

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at some point.
Okay, a couple of months, is

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better than three and a half
days because it's just put you

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through a Time.
Warp and I lost my voice Tuesday

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night in New York City, and I
didn't find it again until I got

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home to Dublin on Friday.
So that was that was unfortunate

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but it lasted just long enough
for us to do an awesome textures

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web 3 event at Union Square,
Ventures with our friends from

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Genesis block on Tuesday night
so that that was great.

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I got to have breakfast with
Jean on Tuesday morning.

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At Pershing Square right
underneath.

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I think it's the parks Park
Avenue Bridge right by Grand

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Central Station, and iconic old
restaurant.

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That I Gene told me had you know
been in plenty of movies but I

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did get a cheaper bagel with
smoked salmon that I had.

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Last time I was there, he was
only 22, there's only $22

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instead of $25.
Well yeah you York is pretty

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pricey these days.
It is going with Euro It is

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definitely definitely.
But so yes, like I said, big

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shout-out to Jean and but you
know, really interested in your

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business and glad that we met
glad that we have that initial

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first chat and that with digging
into your profile.

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The just finding some really
interesting nuggets there that I

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wanted to dig into.
And but before just to inform

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those who may not be familiar
with boundless.

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Can you just give us a quick
insight into the Bound was

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vision and what it's all about,
sure.

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So boundless is an enabler for
building International Teams and

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it's a platform that companies
with workers in countries where

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that company might not have
established operations, they can

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use boundless to very quickly
and easily gets it off to

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employ.
Those people handle, their

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payroll handle their benefits.
And I always say when we're

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hiring, we We don't have a
really hard time hiring because

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all of our team are going
Mission focused.

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Most of our team live in a
country.

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That's not the country.
They grow up in.

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I think all of our team have
lived like me, have lived in

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multiple countries and its
really nice to do something

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very, you're enabling that
reality for lots of other

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people.
And, and that's really our

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mission is to be an enabler for
for that kind of location.

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Flexibility, and the kind of
lifestyle choices that people

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make.
Like so my co-founder lives of a

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mountain in chamonix.
She's a few minutes walk from a

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ski lift.
She's from Ireland but for her

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remote work was an enabler for
that kind of lifestyle and

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that's really important to us.
Awesome.

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That's Emily.
Castles.

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Yeah.
Yep.

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Awesome and it what, what really
was compelling about your whole

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story D is that you have deep
first-hand experience the

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problem, you're solving, right?
You've lived there do you've

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lifted, I sure do to the extent
that my ex colleagues.

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Say they Hurley laugh that I now
spend my life doing this because

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it used to drive me crazy.
I always say, I spent 10 years

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in Co all roles will be to be
SAS companies and I always say

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this was the problem that made
me curse the loudest.

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I was infuriated problem.
So the last company I was with a

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really great interactive video
tech company called accent mr.

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An Irish company we built a team
to be co-located out of our head

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office.
In Dublin.

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But as is always the case with
tech companies people were from

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lots of different countries and
over time, people were

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requesting moves back to their
home countries or they got sick

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of the Irish weather and wanted
to go to somewhere with its

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earlier climate and it really
fell to me to figure out how to

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make that happen and it's
extremely.

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I mean these problems are really
complex, really complex.

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Once a worker is in another
country.

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As a company, you have to comply
with the employment laws and the

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tax laws of that country doing
that.

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As a foreign company
particularly for a smaller

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company is really tricky.
But you know huge beasts of

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companies with tens of thousands
of employees, also struggle with

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this problem.
Definitely the meaty one.

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Definitely.
Yeah.

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And I see that I live that
problem every day and that's

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probably a story for another day
that you might be able to help

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you with the, but it's, you
know, when you have distributed

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teams, Global Workforce, no
matter whether Or, you know, 30

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people are 300 people or 3,000
people, it's just it can be such

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a massive headache and creates
so many unnecessary costs for

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the business which are just
passive cost that you just don't

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need.
That can just completely drag

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down the bottom line, that's the
thing, it's not core, you know,

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that was the thing that really
frustrated me when I was a CEO,

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all when I was dealing with
these problems, I'm just Source,

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lawyers in, France, and Germany
and look for accountants in

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Croatia and Spain.
And it, it wasn't driving the

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business forward.
I mean, sure, having having the

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right people is so hugely
valuable to any business.

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So there's a big value upside in
solving the problem, but it's

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not core to your business.
So we always say all of that,

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that stuff that heavy lifting,
and the nitty-gritty that no one

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is interested in, we take on all
of that.

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So, yeah, no, it's been my spend
my days worrying about these

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problems.
That I hated so much before I

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found it this business, What I
was going to say is you've

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probably had like a front row
seat and terms of how working

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has changed now in the past four
years, is it just that now you

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can remote work better, you
know, does that mean more people

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are doing it or are, you know,
which is driving as they want to

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work in a different country or
the ones to work for particular

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company, regardless of where
that is, well, it's a real mix

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and it's been really
interesting.

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We founded the company in 2019
and over that time, it's all

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yours.
Few years.

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But the use cases that we're
solving for those.

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Been a real shift.
We've seen different waves of

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demand for different reasons.
As we, you know, first went into

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covid and remote work was brand
new for everyone as people were

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settling into it.
And now as a becomes, a more

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long-term thing and there are as
being a real, from our

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perspective, a perfect storm of
situations and realities and one

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is the fact that the Genies out
of the bottle Battle on remote

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work.
Pretty much anyone.

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That's a knowledge.
Worker has no experience remote

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working, some former capacity.
And that means that most people

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will argue, they can do their
job remoting to some extent.

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And when I say most people, I
mean people that do desk jobs

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and that that's not going to
change that's here.

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And it's here to stay, secondary
to that.

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We've all had, an existential
crisis as we were in lockdowns

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and we all are a lot of
questions about our lives and

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what we want from our lives.
And lots of people have

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relocated from the city to the
country.

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Lots of people have changed
careers and done something

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different.
That questioning has meant, that

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a lot of people have been on the
move, but very related to that

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is that attitudes have changed
and people desire and expect

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flexibility when it comes to
work and they want flexibility,

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in all of it Fork, all of its
forms.

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We often say people when they're
starting a job people at

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interview, stage before, going
for a first stage interview, and

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we see this all the time when
we're hiring, people will say,

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you say, this is a remote job.
How remote is it?

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I need to know that it's fully
flexible and a lot of people

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will not even go for an
interview until they know that.

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And I often say it's not that
they necessarily intend moving

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country, but they want to know
they can.

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People want to know.
They want that assurance and it

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tells you something about an
employer.

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It tells you something about how
open they are, how flexible they

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are and if a company is really
rigid on location, it, perhaps

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tells you something about the
rigidity in relation to other

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matters and employees, love to
hear that they've location

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flexibility.
Now, you know, the real world

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operates in such a way that full
location.

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Flexibility is rarely viable for
a variety of reasons because of

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time zones.
It's because of practicalities,

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the problems that we solve even
customers, using an employer of

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record or are using some
solution like that.

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Quite often they won't have
access or wanted the ability to

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do that for every country in the
world, it will often be a list

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and cost Reasons from an
employer's perspective.

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It's super low cost to have
someone in Denmark.

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For example, her employer taxes
are only about 1.25%.

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It's a fixed cost, even Furby,
Boom, very high salaries.

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It ends up being a very low
cost.

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But if that employee wants to
move to France or a lot of

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Southern European countries,
those employer taxes are going

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to cost.
The company could be 40 to 50

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percent of the salary.
Well, and he's often don't

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realize that when they're
requesting moves.

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They think, how hard can it be?
They're just being awkward.

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Why?
You know, why won't they let me

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do this?
And quite often line.

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Managers aren't given exposure
to the Realities at prior to

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know.
And it's just a no.

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So, and no was communicated to
the employee.

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They think the up the, the
company is just being awkward,

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but it can often be down to very
practical reasons why it's not

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possible, but that's not a dude.
Never would have appreciated

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that because obviously you see
all the talk of digital are no

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visas to allow people to go
work, remotely in different

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countries.
And lots of countries are kind

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of bending over backwards to
encourage people, but obviously,

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there's that kind of hidden, you
know, cost to an employer, which

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would probably prevent some of
that happen.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And there's also the fact that
depending on the type of role

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that you do, if you work in a
regulated space.

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So we have quite a few customers
that are in the financial

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services space.
So we have quite a few, VCS

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00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,900
private Equity Funds.
But the individuals that work in

228
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,200
roles that are regulated, so
people in investment type roles.

229
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:40,400
We can't employ them but we can
employ the admin people or

230
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:45,500
people who might be in marketing
roles or related areas for for a

231
00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,800
venture capital fund or private
Equity Fund or a bank.

232
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,200
For example, if someone is in a
role that will be subject to

233
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,600
regulation, if they move to
another territory there, there

234
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,000
is a real chance, the financial
services organization would then

235
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,800
need to be regulated in that
territory.

236
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,100
Which opens up a whole can of
worms.

237
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,300
Or if people are in sales roles,
there could be the risk of

238
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:10,700
creating a permanent
establishment in a territory.

239
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,000
So, often employees aren't aware
of that.

240
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,700
Either, that, you know, I've
been there, I've been Persons

241
00:13:15,700 --> 00:13:20,200
had to establish, and she's and
countries, and then backtrack

242
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,600
and unpick at all as a Leisure
stage and it takes years.

243
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,000
When I say, it takes years, you
know, I've had it before an

244
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,600
employee moved to a country.
We established a permanent

245
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,200
establishment.
Got accountants involved were

246
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,800
registered with the tax
authorities within months.

247
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,700
They moved to another country
and it took me about eight, you

248
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,100
know, 18 months later I was
still having to deal with the

249
00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:46,000
local tax authorities, file
taxes, pay A, a corporation

250
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,000
taxes in that country because
there are obligations.

251
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,400
You can't just shut down an
entity overnight.

252
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,400
It takes time.
Yeah.

253
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,200
Chris speaking of changing
jurisdictions D, it looks like

254
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,100
your first one that you did
might have been around about the

255
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:04,400
time that I was also at Boston
University Weiss.

256
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:09,100
Yeah, back.
When and so I don't suppose you

257
00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:11,600
were, you were Dublin City
University at the time and it

258
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,300
looks like he did an exchange
program and I was there at that

259
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:16,000
point in time.
Rice.

260
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,800
Yeah, pee-yew.
I live.

261
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,900
It was a Howard Johnson hotel at
that point.

262
00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,800
Now it's a bus in University or
a building right by the sickle

263
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,200
sign.
Oh yeah.

264
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,500
In the Howard Johnson, I lived
in the Howard Johnson, it was so

265
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,500
awesome.
So I was an Irish students

266
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:33,600
coming from Irish University and
you know, Irish universities

267
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,500
just run very differently to us
universities.

268
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,900
So, it's going on this Exchange
program and I was very excited

269
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,500
to see what it would be like.
And we don't have dorms here,

270
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:44,800
you know, we don't have that
out.

271
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,900
Culture.
So I was super excited about

272
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:52,400
staying in college dorms and see
what that experience was like.

273
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:56,600
And then I got there because
they guarantee accommodation to

274
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,700
overseas students and first-year
students.

275
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,500
They had this overflow
accommodation and it was all

276
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:06,100
International students.
And two, floors of the hotel was

277
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:08,600
just students the rest of the
hotel operated like a regular

278
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,500
Hotel.
It was chaos.

279
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,500
We didn't have any security like
the dorms HUD, so we just have

280
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,800
parities.
Every We we all in our friend,

281
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,900
you all our friends had room
keys for the car.

282
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,100
Key cards for our rooms.
It was it was chaos.

283
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:26,100
I don't know how the hotel
Toleration us but I guess we

284
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:28,600
were confined to two floors.
We weren't Obsession other

285
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,800
guests people, so it was a lot
of fun.

286
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,600
That's great.
I parked outside that many times

287
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,400
because I was in the school of
management which was right next

288
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,700
door to hojo's.
I had a lot of guys called it,

289
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:41,900
which was a stone's throw from
Fenway Park.

290
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,600
Yeah, I must have Matt.
Did you go to at least one Red

291
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:45,100
Sox?
Game.

292
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:48,400
When you were there, I have to
admit I didn't, which is crazy.

293
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,300
No, I was.
I was extremely busy.

294
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,900
So I had a, you know, studying I
had a very busy social life and

295
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:55,900
then I worked at a pug.
You might know.

296
00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:57,600
Clear.
He's Irish Pub bike.

297
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,400
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I worked course.

298
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,000
I worked in an Irish Pub.
Yeah, I remember that.

299
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,200
That was relatively new when you
were working there.

300
00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:08,200
Maybe it was?
Yeah, it was because they clear

301
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,300
it had the famous clock out
front.

302
00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:13,500
That was reminiscent of the
Cleary's clock on O'Connell

303
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,500
Street.
And ultimately Exactly.

304
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:19,100
And I went back a few years ago
and nothing had changed.

305
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,400
The menu was exactly the same.
So I'm we're talking about 20 or

306
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,900
a gap here.
Many was exactly the same.

307
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,600
Some of the staff hadn't
changed.

308
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,800
The dagger was exactly the same.
It was brilliant.

309
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,100
It was such a trip down memory
lane no that's great.

310
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:40,200
And you when you you came back
and you got into with the

311
00:16:40,208 --> 00:16:44,900
beginning of your career with
sanctuary in big-time right?

312
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,800
That was mainly around
entertainment industry, and

313
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,900
Merchandising and Licensing and
all of that did that give you a

314
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,400
certain?
What kind of start did that give

315
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,100
you working in that industry
from day one.

316
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,800
So I knew when I was a student I
knew I wanted to work in the

317
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,500
music industry.
I always paid music growing up

318
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:08,200
in a very musical household with
my dad, and my brother musicians

319
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:13,300
and that was my real passion.
So I wanted to work in record

320
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:16,099
companies artist management.
Along those lines.

321
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,200
So I did that for about seven
years, it was so much fun, I

322
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,000
learned a huge amount, it's a
very chaotic industry met up

323
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,000
with an old work colleague last
Thursday night that I hadn't

324
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,600
seen for about 12 years and yet,
it hasn't changed.

325
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,200
Still still a crazy crazy
industry.

326
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:37,500
It's, but I learned so much.
The company I worked for a

327
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:40,500
sanctuary was very, very
multifaceted.

328
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:42,900
It doesn't exist anymore.
It was bought out by Universal

329
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:47,300
Music, quite a few years ago.
But the organization had grown

330
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:52,500
through acquisition, they die
poed raised funding to acquire

331
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,300
broad range of businesses and
the group owned record

332
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,200
companies, artist management
companies merchandise recording

333
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:06,000
studios, music Publishers book,
publishers, really multifaceted.

334
00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:09,900
And I did a management training
program with them where I had

335
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,800
the brilliant experience of
spending a few months hopping

336
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,800
around different.
Companies, which was super cool.

337
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,300
I learned so much, I often think
obviously amazing to work in a

338
00:18:20,308 --> 00:18:26,600
creative industry, but a lot of
like, the stuff where I really

339
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,400
learned a lot was around the
licensing and IP end of things,

340
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,300
which I got really involved in
and was a founding member of a

341
00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,900
trademark and rights Protection
Organization, a trade body.

342
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,600
But yeah, that that and also
working in an organization and

343
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,200
music is so different.
Now, Now back then it was about

344
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,200
CD that was about record sales
and the discipline of

345
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,300
manufacturing businesses and I
worked in the merchandise and of

346
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,000
things as well, which is a
really complex business because

347
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,000
we had a touring division, who
had some people in Asia.

348
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,200
Some people were in the US
somewhere in Europe, and they

349
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,100
were on the Move every few days,
and you had to track the stuff

350
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,900
that they were selling and
anticipate what the stock needs

351
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:16,500
will be and what country You
need to deliver them but that

352
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:19,500
time brand licensing was not
what it is.

353
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:24,400
Now we can't forget, one of my
colleagues was super smart and

354
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,800
she went and did a deal with
Topshop and a deal with H&M,

355
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,600
which at the time was
revolutionaries.

356
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:33,300
Well, we're doing a brand
licensing deal, what major High

357
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,700
Street retailers and we have the
rights for a Motorhead and Guns

358
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:41,000
and Roses.
So we did deals with them for

359
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,100
for t-shirts and clothing with
these brands on Them.

360
00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,300
But that, that was very new at
the time, it was also the time.

361
00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:51,000
I don't know if you remember
this, but we were selling

362
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,200
ringtones and phone screen.
See anyone under 40?

363
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,200
Probably listening to this or
certainly under 35.

364
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,700
Think people used to pay for
phone ringtones?

365
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,600
Yeah.
Yeah.

366
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,400
Why isn't it just a quote,
Arctic Monkeys going back to?

367
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,900
Like, what was it?
2006 is that there's only music

368
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:15,900
so there's new ringtones.
Yeah, it was very Window of time

369
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800
and people used to pay for green
savers for their phones.

370
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,600
If this is back when there are
counties our phones, but yeah,

371
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,400
we did a lot of that.
So, yeah, I really enjoyed.

372
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,000
It was a lot of fun.
Yeah.

373
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,300
No, it's a great great.
And that's where you got some of

374
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:33,000
your planning and strategy and
execution and operational bones.

375
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,700
Yeah, term sure.
You know, getting things going

376
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,200
on, I worked at a music
marketing agency at one point.

377
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,700
And I remember the CEO saying to
me, someday you'll be a great

378
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,200
Ops leader.
You could be So or something and

379
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,300
I was really offended because I
don't know how to work in a box

380
00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:53,600
that sounds really boring.
But I was actually offended

381
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,400
because I think I wanted I had
Notions about doing something a

382
00:20:57,408 --> 00:21:00,300
bit more creative but I was far
more suited to the Ops.

383
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,700
So you know I was good really
good at execution.

384
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,400
Yeah notes and it's a good
combination the creativity and

385
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,300
well, as well as the operational
strength.

386
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:13,800
So it served you well and you
made a, you know, before your

387
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,500
next phase kicked And you made a
little bit of a creative stop

388
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,200
with silver Wishbone.
I do it.

389
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:24,600
So I had a window of time, I
decided to leave music this

390
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:25,900
year.
I turned 30, it's a bit of a

391
00:21:25,908 --> 00:21:28,800
cliche in the music industry.
A lot of people leave the ER

392
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,200
they turned 30 and I knew I
wanted to do something else.

393
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,000
I wanted something, I was more
ambitious than then what my

394
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,300
career in the music industry was
was giving me and I just felt

395
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:44,800
like I wasn't able to get to
where I wanted to be in music.

396
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:50,000
So I just took a jump and then I
had a two-year period where I

397
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,400
guess I was trying to find my
purpose and figure out where I

398
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,900
go and I knew I knew I wanted to
move into at that time I was

399
00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:01,200
saying online mobile or online,
which what?

400
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,400
We're now, we'd probably called
Tech because I could see a

401
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,900
music.
There are huge opportunities in

402
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:10,100
those spaces and I didn't have
experience in digital as we

403
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:12,200
called it then.
So, I thought I'd get that

404
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,500
experience.
A probably then start a music

405
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:16,600
text.
Start up soon as I got into

406
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,000
Tech.
I realized it's where I wanted

407
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,700
to be.
So had that ambition but didn't

408
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:21,600
know how to get there.
I didn't have a network, didn't

409
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,100
have any experience in that
space.

410
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,000
So, for two years, I do a few
different things.

411
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:31,300
I did a one-year contract with
UBS Investment Bank and I did a

412
00:22:31,308 --> 00:22:35,500
one-year contract at Bob Geldof
startup private Equity firms.

413
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,500
That was really interesting as
well to see.

414
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,800
It was just a real startup.
I was employee number two, how

415
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,500
we're Mondays at that place when
I didn't like them.

416
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,700
So yeah.
And then on the side and it was

417
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,200
when I look back, you know, it's
you have that kind of energy

418
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,100
when you're younger, that goes
like this, so crazy.

419
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:58,300
I did so many things at once.
I did a project management

420
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:02,000
qualification, I didn't
accounting qualification.

421
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,800
I and I started silver,
Wishbone, and online jewelry

422
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,400
retail business is real.
I wanted to build a website.

423
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,800
That was how I used a website
builder.

424
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,100
I used Yahoo web.
Okay, that's old.

425
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:17,900
School was quite a few years
ago.

426
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,100
Yeah.
So I am very into jewelry.

427
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:25,400
I love jewelry.
So, I built this online jewelry

428
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,300
retail business.
I didn't build a business.

429
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:31,500
That's that's a liar built a
website, but but you got, you

430
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,800
got it going.
It was, it was up and running.

431
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,200
You got customers.
I had customers, I had Some

432
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,500
customers who were people that
weren't even in my personal

433
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:43,000
network, but almost immediately.
As soon as it was up and

434
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,700
running, I realized this is
about packing boxes.

435
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:49,600
Go to the post office.
So I knew yeah, I knew it could

436
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,500
never be a huge business but I
realized what I enjoyed was.

437
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,700
Setting it up, I enjoyed the
research piece deciding on the

438
00:23:56,700 --> 00:24:00,500
pricing sourcing, the product of
that was fun and then once it

439
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:03,700
was up and running, I was like.
So maybe that's what gave me a

440
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:08,900
bit of an insight into startups
and how they At the early stage,

441
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:13,100
the setup stage figuring stuff
out is actually so much more

442
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,400
exciting and interesting than
the status quo, definitely,

443
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,700
definitely.
And I saw the silver

444
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:20,500
Wishbone.com is now owned by a
woman named Shannon, who is a

445
00:24:20,508 --> 00:24:23,100
freelance writer in Florida, so,
at least stayed and creative

446
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:26,000
hand looked in so long.
Yeah, yeah.

447
00:24:26,008 --> 00:24:28,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was a very good name, is a

448
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,300
very good name and that kind of
led to your next step with

449
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:36,000
Mesabi and then returning to
Dublin with busy simply with

450
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,700
axon Isa as you.
And doing some Consulting in

451
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,800
there as well, that gave you
kind of a multi-discipline

452
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,600
multi-faceted kind of experience
across a number of different

453
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,000
startups at different stages and
that must have been extremely

454
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,300
valuable.
Yeah, so, you know, as I said, I

455
00:24:53,308 --> 00:24:58,400
had these Ambitions to get into
Tech and the job at Mesabi was

456
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,200
actually saw an Advertiser and
lying, which is so unusual for a

457
00:25:01,208 --> 00:25:03,800
role like that because own
monster a Monster.

458
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:10,400
Yeah, yeah, we're jobs and it
was just Just I feel so blessed.

459
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,300
I got that job.
It was just perfect for me.

460
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:16,900
And I got such brilliant
experience and the founders are

461
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:20,000
just great guys.
I haven't, I haven't seen them

462
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000
recently but did spend almost a
whole day with them.

463
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,500
A couple of years ago.
I was the first their Sixth and

464
00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:27,700
four.
I was the sixth employee was

465
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:33,200
five Engineers when I arrived
in, they had no live products,

466
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,700
no money in the bank.
No customer is very definitely.

467
00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:42,700
No pre-revenue, but amazing.
These were extremely talented

468
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:46,600
Engineers, really?
Really smart guys, and they just

469
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,900
knew they needed someone that
wasn't an engineer.

470
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:51,900
So they advertise for a
commercial manager but I didn't

471
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:54,300
really know what a commercial
manager was and they didn't

472
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:56,400
really know.
So I just came in and I did all

473
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,000
the stuff that was not writing
Colt and they've been gone for

474
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,300
48 years.
They've been building for eight

475
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:07,300
years but obviously it was an
extremely limited market.

476
00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:09,400
But this Was the year the iPhone
launched.

477
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:12,200
Okay, so suddenly they had this,
there were commercial

478
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,000
opportunities for people that
knew how to build ups.

479
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,000
And there were not many people
that you have to build up.

480
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,600
So that, you know, the people at
our core were extremely aware of

481
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,000
of somehow we were doing even
though we were in like this

482
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,500
six-person company, we the
ability to take payment in up

483
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:29,500
because the guys had done some
early mobile banking stuff and

484
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:33,600
that was at the time we meet
with feces and they'd say you're

485
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,300
taking the payment, you're
handling the payment yourself

486
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,400
within the app.
We say, yeah.

487
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,700
And then they take what about
all the people that will never

488
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,500
buy anything on a mobile phone?
Which yeah, of course, the big

489
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:46,300
loads of people never put their
payment card details.

490
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:48,900
It's all about felt that all of
these very different now.

491
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:52,900
So it was just a brilliant
experience, you know, we raised

492
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,700
multiple rounds of investment.
We grew the teen were initially

493
00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:59,600
serving customers in the UK.
We were based in London, started

494
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,200
serving customers in the u.s.
really long sales Cycles.

495
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,800
Very long, we were selling to
Transit agencies.

496
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,200
We were doing ticket.
Ting.

497
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,800
For at that stage tray, it was
trained.

498
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,900
Operator, is now they serve all
kinds of Transit agencies but

499
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:18,900
yeah, brilliant, brilliant
experience and I just got to

500
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,500
really, I mean, you know, I had
a decent job skills going in

501
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,100
there, but it was the first time
I'd been in a senior leadership

502
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,700
role where I got to own
function.

503
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:34,300
So I was responsible for
finance, legal April.

504
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,300
I oversaw all of the the goal
setting.

505
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,200
At an organizational level.
I worked really closely with the

506
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,700
founders to define the direction
that we will go in and then to

507
00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,700
figure out how to get the team
to come along with us.

508
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:50,400
That was that was probably the
piece of it, that, that I really

509
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,400
enjoyed the most, but we went
from, Six people in a crummy

510
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,800
office to, you know, move into
these great officers and lead a

511
00:27:58,808 --> 00:28:01,500
team of about 50.
They have about 300 now.

512
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:04,000
So I've grown a lot since that
time.

513
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:06,800
But it was cool, it was really
cool experience and I loved it

514
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,000
and I you know I mentioned that
I thought I would go and do

515
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,200
something in Tech and get enough
experience to go back to music.

516
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,800
I'd say I was there ten days and
I said like this never going

517
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,300
back to music.
This is for Carol and to be This

518
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:27,100
is these are my people nice, but
you still play an instrument.

519
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:29,200
I mean, I mess around.
I'm not.

520
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,200
Yeah, okay.
Probably.

521
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,800
I couldn't subject and girls do
it, but why would I play the

522
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,500
guitar?
I used to play the flute growing

523
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:38,500
up.
That was always my instruments.

524
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,500
That realize I was in orchestras
and stuff, they don't do that

525
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:43,700
anymore, which is a shame.
But I'm sure I always say

526
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:45,900
whenever I retire.
Yeah.

527
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,700
Yeah you look like hell.
I'd love to learn the cello

528
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,300
cello, so I think I will go back
to playing more music.

529
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:54,700
Yeah.
Yeah, I picked it up again when

530
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:58,200
my kids started playing so you
know, and it's amazing how when

531
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,300
you see your kids changing
chords on the guitar that you're

532
00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:03,000
like.
If they can do it, I can do it.

533
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,300
You know, if that's pretty
awesome but the seems like a

534
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:09,800
real snowball that was building
here and then what was the

535
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,300
impetus to return back to
Dublin?

536
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,800
Say it wasn't necessarily that
there was a draw back to Dublin.

537
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:20,300
I think I was just overwhelmed
and I was there 12 years, it's

538
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,400
such an amazing City owes their
last week.

539
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,400
I love Today maybe it wasn't
even armed and I just wanted a

540
00:29:25,408 --> 00:29:27,400
change.
I wanted to go somewhere

541
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,400
different and I had a network in
Ireland's so it seemed like the

542
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,200
obvious Place.
Yep.

543
00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:36,100
And that that next first stop
was was busy employee.

544
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,600
Yes in Ireland.
Yeah.

545
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,200
Well where I met?
My co-founder Emily.

546
00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:43,000
A simply was a great experience.
I was at some drinks that are

547
00:29:43,008 --> 00:29:44,700
very kind people that enter your
see.

548
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:47,600
Back when Andy receive was down
at the digital, hope they gave

549
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:53,500
me a desk to work from and I
stood all the Working events

550
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,400
that they had and I was at
drinks.

551
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,700
And I met Gerald Ford, who's the
founder of the simply, who was a

552
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:05,100
brilliant person, absolute
genius products, genius met him,

553
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:07,500
and the whole team were there at
some drinks.

554
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,400
And I, you know, I spoke to
Jared.

555
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,000
And I'd say within five minutes.
I was like, I'm gonna work for

556
00:30:12,008 --> 00:30:13,600
this company.
Yep.

557
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:14,600
It's right away.
You meet.

558
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,400
So, you know, you go to so many.
I'm sure you're like we are at

559
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,500
so many startup events.
You so many people and I mean

560
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:24,900
this is harsh but I'll be The
vast majority of people when

561
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:29,500
they describe what their startup
is Eagle, your Holland, yeah,

562
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,000
laughter, real job for that.
I know.

563
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:35,400
Well, that's why 95 percent of
startups fail, right?

564
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,900
Yeah, yeah.
So, but jarrod's describes what

565
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:41,200
they were doing and, but simply
is a workforce management

566
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,300
software to it's used by the
hospitality sector again.

567
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:49,700
They were super early, they were
running trials, but they've

568
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:52,700
never, they were pre-revenue.
I always say that was easy.

569
00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:54,700
It feels a little bit
disingenuous saying their

570
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:59,500
pre-revenue because I joined and
I just I said you have send out

571
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,000
invoices.
It's just none of these people

572
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,300
have paid you.
They were like yeah well you

573
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,100
know we do they kind of felt
like they didn't want to ask for

574
00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,800
money because they felt like the
product wasn't good enough, but

575
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,900
it was these people were using
the product all the time.

576
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:13,700
So my first week I just made a
few phone calls and then brought

577
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:16,300
Revenue it was the easiest
you're right.

578
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:18,800
I've been carrying my drawing
pre-revenue but all I have to do

579
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,300
is to make a few phone calls and
the revenue revenue stars are

580
00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:23,800
coming in.
But yeah, the It's a great

581
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,900
business, it's a great product,
it's used by a lot of cost.

582
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,800
Two coffees.
Now in the UK, pretty much every

583
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,000
part I was with some friends.
Last night, we walked by a bar

584
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,000
and I pointed in the window and
I said that simply you know you

585
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,000
see behind the counter.
You see that the clock in clock

586
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,900
out on an iPad.
So yeah, it was, it was a good

587
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,200
one to join but I could tell
when I talked to Jared about it

588
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,900
I was like this is you're
solving a real problem and you

589
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:51,900
know what you're talking about
he was from the restaurant

590
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:54,400
trade.
He said he'd owned restaurants

591
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,600
himself.
Okay, got it.

592
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,800
And then it looks like after be
simply that you were doing some

593
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,900
Consulting and that you went
into ax and ISTA probably on a

594
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,000
advisory Consulting gig and then
they ask you to stick around for

595
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,200
a while, exactly.
I actually met Claire McHugh and

596
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,700
Darrell Ward back in 2015, 2016.
I was I was looking at a

597
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:18,100
start-up project and I went to
go meet them.

598
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:21,400
It was somewhere off of
somewhere above.

599
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,600
What was it now?
Our street.

600
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,700
Yes.
And for the office was talking

601
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:29,400
about so she talked to them
about the project, they showed

602
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,600
me, what they had built, all
this interactive video for QVC,

603
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:37,800
the the TV Shopping Network in
the US and I'm like, whoa, this

604
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,500
was mind-blowing and it was
probably a hundred times too

605
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:43,300
expensive for the startup that I
wanted to build back then.

606
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,300
Yeah.
It was amazing and it's so cool

607
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,100
that you're involved with that.
Yeah.

608
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:51,600
So that's real Enterprise sales,
you know they have big

609
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,700
customers.
Hi.

610
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,700
I value contract.
So yet it was good to get that

611
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:59,400
mix and interactive video, I
really liked because again, it

612
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200
was, it was media was a little
bit closer to that creative

613
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,000
Industries, where I've been with
music and, and the super team.

614
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,700
A lot of people are very
specialist skills video

615
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:13,300
engineers and data scientists
really smart people.

616
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,700
Oh yeah, definitely.
I was floored by what they

617
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:19,200
showed me was amazing.
And then what was the trigger

618
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,700
point to launch boundless, you
know?

619
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,600
I later, I mean, I probably I
should have started a start-up

620
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,700
years earlier on, people used to
always say, to me, I need you

621
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:31,900
going to start your own or more
often than not.

622
00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:34,300
People used to say, I assume
you're going to start your own

623
00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:37,200
paying very soon, but I wasn't
brave enough.

624
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:41,500
You know, I was, I really had a
lot of friends that were started

625
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:44,400
to Founders.
I had seen startups, destroy

626
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,400
people's mental health, I had
seen far more companies failed

627
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,100
and have success.
I was definitely very scared of

628
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:54,000
it.
But I reached a point where I

629
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,100
needed, I was over a Jew.
I was a sea wall for 10 years,

630
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:04,700
my probably over stayed in that
role and I wanted a big leap, a

631
00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:06,300
big jump.
I wanted something that was a

632
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:11,699
huge Challenge and the CEO role
was the obvious place to go, but

633
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:14,900
I sure as hell didn't want to be
CEO of someone else's baby.

634
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:17,800
Yep, because that sounds like
all kinds of complicated.

635
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,400
So I knew the next I think
joining oxidized I knew the next

636
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400
thing.
Would do will be my own ping,

637
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,600
but I didn't know Applause.
And then this problem I had

638
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,000
experienced when I was asked
back Sinister and it it seems

639
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:40,100
like too big problem to solve,
it seemed far too complex.

640
00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:43,199
There was a lot of legal risk
involved.

641
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:47,000
You needed funding, to establish
all of these entities

642
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,300
internationally.
I wasn't convinced that it was

643
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:54,500
possible to deliver a cohesive
quality customer experience

644
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:56,699
throughout of service providers
operate.

645
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,900
In the model that we Now operate
the XD, customer experience was

646
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:02,800
rubbish.
They were awful to support was

647
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,500
terrible.
As you know, a lot of them

648
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:09,400
still, it's that kind of
experience and I didn't know if

649
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,400
it could be done.
Well.

650
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,900
So I guess it was a problem that
gnawed away at me.

651
00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:16,800
And, you know, I always had like
no book, right of different

652
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,500
ideas and it was always there
glaring at me, but it took me

653
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:23,700
time to say, yeah, I'll give it
a go.

654
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,600
Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.
It again.

655
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,300
It just seems like the snowball
Gathering momentum and that the

656
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:35,600
network you built the experience
is that you had the confidence

657
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,100
that that gave you.
The the leadership, the

658
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:42,000
thinking, the planning, the
execution strategy, all that

659
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,100
stuff combined into one.
Do you think that if you hadn't

660
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:48,900
gone through that and you had
started a 10 years before that

661
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:52,900
you would have been able to get
the attention of All-Star

662
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:56,500
investors like check Warner from
out of Ventures.

663
00:35:56,900 --> 00:36:00,700
And Julie, Maples from Firefly
Ventures, who were the key

664
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:02,700
investors in your seed.
Round, it's really hard to say

665
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:05,000
because there are lots of first
time.

666
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,200
Founders, who maybe don't have a
whole lot of work experience

667
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,300
behind them, who do amazing
things and raise huge sums of

668
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:15,000
money, right?
There are people that you could

669
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,000
have been that one.
So I don't know if I would have

670
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,400
been that one.
I think so much of it's about

671
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,100
psychology, right?
I'm not a sports book, being a

672
00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:26,600
start-up founder.
I do see the parallels.

673
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,300
I know a lot of people would
read sports biographies and

674
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:34,800
stuff to learn about the mindset
of athletes or coaches and it is

675
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,300
similar, you have to believe
that you can win.

676
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,200
And I didn't believe that before
it took me time to build that

677
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,600
belief and for me, and people
are different dry spot.

678
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,200
Will give you.
That belief is different for

679
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,000
different people for me.
Well, gave me that belief was D

680
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,700
risking and saying, well, I know
you do.

681
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:53,600
I know how to hire a build a
team.

682
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:56,600
I know how to ride a finance
function.

683
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,400
I have really good background in
the legal stuff.

684
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,900
I, you know, I know how to raise
investment.

685
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,100
I get the startup thing.
I have a network.

686
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,500
So for real, all of those things
were Dee risky.

687
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:11,500
Yep.
By the time I can't and it's

688
00:37:11,500 --> 00:37:16,000
still it's so bloody hard.
It is still so hard when you

689
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,400
have that background and
experience and you have all of

690
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,500
those things.
So I'm constantly in all of

691
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:26,300
people who are new to take or
very young Founders.

692
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:31,200
I'm just like I've no idea how
you do it but for me building

693
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,000
having that arsenal of tools D
risking was the thing that

694
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:38,400
allowed me to go yeah.
Like I could Do this.

695
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:40,200
What I said?
I'm so terrified that it was

696
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:40,900
going.
Yeah.

697
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:45,200
My fear was like, I just did
this fear that, you know, we'd

698
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,600
never get any customers or we'd
get like seven customizing, it

699
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,300
won't be able to get any more
and it would just be this damp

700
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:55,200
squib and it would be that
identifies all know how, you

701
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,200
know, how did I think I could
start a copy?

702
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,700
Why did I think I could do this?
And that it will be really

703
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,300
embarrassing.
I'm really happy to say we're

704
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:03,800
beyond that point.
You know, we have, we have

705
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,200
enough Revenue in enough
customer, is that it's not

706
00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:10,600
Thought Morty embarrassed.
Yeah, you know what you guys are

707
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,500
doing really well, and but it's
like it's the repetitions

708
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:18,700
because I feel that myself, you
know, in the last year now, I've

709
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:22,000
been through 1,000 deals,
looking at 1,000 deals for

710
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,200
techstars.
Okay.

711
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:28,400
And that, that just, that is
mental muscle that muscle

712
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,800
memory.
And it gives you a great deal of

713
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:35,900
speed efficiency, confidence,
execution, ability and just

714
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:38,500
improves your leadership.
Abilities is Beast.

715
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,800
It's what people describe as got
feeling right.

716
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,100
But got a feeling of course, is
based on all of your prior

717
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,300
experience.
I used to work with this man and

718
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:49,500
like, my old colleague I met
last week that I haven't seen

719
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:53,000
for years, we were talking about
him and I was telling her how he

720
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:59,500
used to amaze me.
He is such a character rail, you

721
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:02,800
know, Ace and London.
Giza had probably left school

722
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,000
very young like I say he left
school at 14 or 15.

723
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:10,000
No formal education.
Education, but you I will come

724
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,500
in to propose something to him
will be a brand licensing deal

725
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:14,000
or something.
And I will command.

726
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,300
I got off, I've got this amazing
opportunity.

727
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,300
I found this partner and I just
quickly view out a couple of

728
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:26,900
details and he got no more work.
I've been busting my bully whole

729
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:32,900
thing and he got no and he would
rhyme on a list of numbers.

730
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,700
He would be able to in like a
made it without taking out a

731
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:38,500
calculator.
Pen and paper.

732
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,700
He go you know that that
couldn't partnership that kind

733
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:43,200
of deal.
It's going to look like this.

734
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,800
You'll sell this many units of
this territory that money within

735
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,000
that territory.
The costs are going to be this.

736
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,400
Your profit rates going to be
your margins, go to be whatever.

737
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:54,700
It's not going to work.
Can't make that work and ice

738
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:56,600
cream.
I'd walk out of the room like

739
00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:59,000
frontal going.
How does he know?

740
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:03,000
I do buddy.
He's been doing this for years

741
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,700
and you know, because he spent
so much time looking at sets of

742
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:07,500
numbers, he just knew the
numbers.

743
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:09,700
He's?
I'm amazing.

744
00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:12,100
I see a phone while we always
joke about it because she's the

745
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,100
Savior.
She obviously hasn't closed, got

746
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:16,100
for no reason.
So do I, I've produced so many

747
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,000
Financial projections of
financial models for so many

748
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,800
different companies at this
stage and so many different

749
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,100
types of businesses will look at
something and I'll go you know I

750
00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:29,400
reckon that's going to be it's
going to be about two hundred,

751
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,300
ten thousand Euro and she'll go
okay and she you know, whatever

752
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,300
it is when evolved her having to
go and do all this research to

753
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:40,400
all these calculations.
You have to do the calculations,

754
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,300
she'll come back to you.
Like I've spent two days at

755
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:45,400
this, it's two hundred and
twelve thousand Euro, okay?

756
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:48,800
Always being little you're a
little bit easier around and you

757
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,700
do you just like numbers is
where it's very noticeable.

758
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:52,900
I think you're right.
When you were talking about

759
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:55,400
deals, probably the same thing.
You just get this.

760
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,600
Gosh you're like that's probably
going to need about a million

761
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,500
for that or really crazy cat.
You know, you can't just rely on

762
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:05,800
gut instinct and say I reckon
this is for around terms of ARR.

763
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:08,400
But yeah, you do get real fresh.
You do dinner.

764
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,000
And it probably comes back then
too, you know that piece you're

765
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,200
saying about the kind of fear
being first-time founder and

766
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,900
being ready.
What's interested in terms of

767
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,700
what you're doing obviously with
boundless is that it it seems

768
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:21,900
like something that, you know,
should have been solved or

769
00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:23,900
someone should have been solving
in already.

770
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,300
But actually really it takes
someone who knows all of the

771
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,300
Nuance to it, because I'm sure
people have looked at it from

772
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:32,600
the outside and think, oh, well,
you should be able to do this.

773
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,200
And, you know, maybe someone not
from the background would say,

774
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,800
oh yeah, I could build a
platform but Wanting to all of

775
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,300
the ten different knock-on
effects of that.

776
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:44,400
They need to look at in this
particular thing and like that,

777
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,000
you know, your experience of all
of it has gotten you to the

778
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,500
point that, you know, the ins
and outs of, you know, problems

779
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:52,100
down the line in particular
areas.

780
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,500
So whilst you're coming at it
from a, you know, first time

781
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,400
founder piece, you were coming
at it with a deep kind of

782
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,200
knowledge of the challenges of
what you're trying to solve.

783
00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:04,500
Well, what you've described is
exactly what's happened.

784
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,900
On our space got extremely busy
once covid.

785
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:10,900
Hit and Once particularly when
there was that explosion in

786
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:15,600
remote working and funding going
into the remote workspace, there

787
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,100
were a huge number of people who
opportunistically decided to

788
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:23,100
build a startup in this space.
They just saw an opportunity and

789
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,700
the only founder in the space
from an Ops background.

790
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,000
So what most companies in its
face did was they just looked at

791
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,300
it and said, I can just
piggyback these existing service

792
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:37,700
providers I can piggyback on
their infrastructure, build a

793
00:42:37,707 --> 00:42:41,400
tech front end that the customer
uses, but I doubt Source, the

794
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,900
actual employment, and the
payroll and so on, to third

795
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:49,600
parties, but I've been a
customer of these third parties,

796
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,500
they so bad.
I decided to devote my life to

797
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:55,300
building an alternative.
But I knew that because I'd been

798
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:59,300
a customer, but I think Pause
and I chewed in the space that

799
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:01,400
you can solve all problems would
take.

800
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:04,500
You just automate, you build
Tech.

801
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:09,300
In my mind, the tack on a good
Tech user interface and great

802
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:11,600
product experience, that's table
Stakes.

803
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,100
You have to provide that, but
you cannot eliminate what's

804
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,400
behind that you're doing.
You're doing with hate your

805
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,800
problems.
You're dealing with people's

806
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,300
benefits.
There's a big human element to

807
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:23,300
pop.
We do.

808
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:26,800
So you need all of that at the
back end and it needs Needs to

809
00:43:26,808 --> 00:43:29,200
be high quality.
So yeah, it's the fact that

810
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,800
people have taken that approach
of just being very opportunistic

811
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,800
and not actually understanding
the problems, not understanding

812
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,400
the customer.
It's given us a really big

813
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,800
opportunity to differentiate and
be the apps.

814
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,800
People that really understand
problems and can can see your,

815
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,400
from the customers perspective
and builds the products that

816
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,300
they really need, and provide
the level of support that they

817
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:52,400
need.
Awesome.

818
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:53,300
Awesome.
I love it.

819
00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:55,700
How are you thinking about your
next round?

820
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,600
Given that your seed round was
roughly 18 months ago.

821
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:02,200
How's that going to shape up?
So we really interesting me.

822
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,800
If you talk to me for five
months ago, the answer to this

823
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:07,800
question would have been very
different.

824
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,200
Obviously the word you know.
The world is changing all the

825
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,000
time and we've seen it.
We saw a lot of change last year

826
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,400
when it comes came to
fundraising markets and the

827
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,800
realities of being out there and
fundraising we have just A

828
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,500
couple of very large customers
and where we've started to

829
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:28,900
realize that actually, we are in
a position now to do Enterprise

830
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:32,500
sales.
So we are in a very nice

831
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:37,200
position of having enough.
Funding through through sales,

832
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,500
customer is large customers,
paying annually upfront to

833
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,400
support us in the growth that we
want to deliver at this year.

834
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,900
Wow.
So right now, we're not actively

835
00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:48,100
fundraising.
Okay?

836
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,300
Now that's a good position.
A great position to be in and I

837
00:44:51,308 --> 00:44:54,100
keep keep saying I'm not, you
know, closing the door to ever

838
00:44:54,100 --> 00:44:58,700
raising Venture money again, but
I want to work with VC's that

839
00:44:58,700 --> 00:45:02,500
are coming to me that have
conviction of what we're doing.

840
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,900
That see the opportunity and
really want to work in a

841
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:09,300
partnership rather than being
out there chasing the money,

842
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:12,500
which is a great position to be
in but it's made me think so

843
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,700
differently in myself and Emily.
My co-founder keep saying a

844
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,500
perspective on things is just
totally different now and there

845
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:23,000
were going after much larger
customers We do sales How We Do

846
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,200
marketing is all going to fray
different this year and I'm very

847
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,400
excited about that.
It feels like a fresh start, is

848
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,900
what it is, exciting.
It's nice and I got imagine that

849
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:35,000
someone like Jack Warner, like I
mentioned, she's not going to be

850
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,100
the type of VC with her
long-term view that will try to

851
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:40,400
get you to do another round.
So they get evaluation pump for

852
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,000
their fund know.
I have breakfast with her last

853
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,100
Friday in London.
She's super excited.

854
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:47,700
Super excited about the
Enterprise sales opportunity,

855
00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:51,800
extremely supportive.
So yeah, with the, we have Have

856
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,400
we have not we're not overfunded
a lot of companies in our space,

857
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,000
raised hundreds of millions, the
now, trying to figure out.

858
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,400
If it to make their margins
work, we've had those

859
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,300
fundamentals working all along.
So the world is our oyster,

860
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:05,600
their money Pat's we can go down
now which is great.

861
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,000
Awesome, awesome.
So we'll move to the point of

862
00:46:09,008 --> 00:46:12,700
this discussion D where Owen
asks his last final famous

863
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:14,700
question that we asked everybody
on this podcast.

864
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:16,400
Oh and over to you buddy?
Yes.

865
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,700
And thanks again to you've
shared those that are just.

866
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:20,500
Is there anything people
wouldn't expect to know about

867
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,200
you?
I should have prepared an answer

868
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,900
for this.
I didn't do anything.

869
00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:27,000
People wouldn't expect to know
about me.

870
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:32,300
I, um, I'm a big Yogi and very
into yoga and meditation and I

871
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:36,500
have when I go on vacations, I
will often do yoga holidays.

872
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:40,100
I do, like, when I travel for
work as well, always find a yoga

873
00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:43,300
studio near my hotel and it
makes you feel like a real

874
00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:45,000
local.
Hmm.

875
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,600
You know, and go for a yoga
class locally before work, it's

876
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,100
something I love to do to know
if that's done.

877
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:52,700
If that's what you're hoping
for.

878
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,400
No, that's awesome.
I was just thinking this morning

879
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,300
I do meditate myself as well but
I meditate standing up while I'm

880
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:01,000
walking, there is a way to do
this.

881
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,300
Is guys she was out you mean,
and I went through a class

882
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:08,700
thanks to Paul Smith who's who's
a good friend last year and it

883
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,200
works and I do it for 5 minutes
every morning and it totally

884
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,800
clears.
My head kind of like a whore

885
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,700
sleeping standing up.
You know gonna have to research

886
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:18,300
that and hope I don't go into
any word on the street.

887
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,300
Exactly.
No sure, I'll share it with Edie

888
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:22,700
but listen.
Thank you so much for joining

889
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,400
the show.
This has been fascinating to

890
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,800
figure out more about you and to
hear the story from you

891
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,800
firsthand and it all it all
Blends together so well, and I

892
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,400
can see why you guys are totally
just killing it with with

893
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,900
boundless.
So, keep going.

894
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:40,000
This is such an awesome story.
Thank you.

895
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:41,400
Thanks so much.
Both of you.

896
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,800
I really enjoyed us.
Take care and have a good day.

897
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:51,800
Thanks.
That does it for this week,

898
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,700
folks.
Thanks the D Coakley for opening

899
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:54,900
up.
Her mind to help us figure out

900
00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:56,000
why she does.
What she does.

901
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,600
You can learn more about the
cochlear and boundless in the

902
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,300
show notes on our website money
never sleeps.

903
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:02,400
That.
I thank secona, Brophy, from

904
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create sound for mixing and
editing.

905
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,500
This episode, Conan is an
excellent medium and to get in

906
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:08,100
touch with when you're thinking
about launching your own

907
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:10,600
podcast.
As for me, I'm an early stage,

908
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,200
startup investor focused on
where fintech meets crypto and

909
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,300
crypto meets web 3 and I run the
techstars web 3 accelerator.

910
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,600
There are plenty of links in the
show notes on money, never

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00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,400
sleeps that IE and how to get in
touch with us.

912
00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:23,300
So please don't hesitate to
reach out finally you till next

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00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:24,600
time.
Thanks for listening.

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00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:25,000
See you