213: In the Middle | Patrick Pinschmidt and MiddleGame Ventures

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Hey there.
I'm Pete on said, in this is

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money.
Never sleeps.

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We look inside the minds of
entrepreneurs, and at the

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crossover of startups,
Enterprise Finance, technology

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and Life.
As we know it on the show this

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week, we've got Patrick pinch,
MIT, who is a general partner

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and co-founder at middlegame.
Ventures a financial technology,

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Venture Capital fund focused on
early stage investments in

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Europe, Previously Patrick was a
deputy assistant secretary at

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the US Department of Treasury,
re served as the first executive

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director of the financial
stability, oversight Council.

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Prior to his government service,
Patrick spent a decade as a sell

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side.
Financial institutions and

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capital markets analyst where he
was at lead Analyst at Morgan

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Stanley and Merrill Lynch for
the Brokers exchanges in

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financial technology sector.
He's a grad at Georgetown

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University's School of Foreign
Service and Columbia

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University's Graduate School of
Business in this episode.

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Patrick, and I dive into Life
experiences, it delivered him to

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venture capital for, we talked
through middlegame Ventures,

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Iris seed fund, and what he
looks for and fin Tech Founders.

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We also get into Patrick's
Lessons Learned as an investor,

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how he looks at deals investing
in lines, not dots and the human

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focus of early stage investing.
All right here on money.

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Never sleeps.
Thrilled to be having this chat

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with you.
And I look back in my calendar

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to see when you.
And I actually first met, and I

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knew it was at Matt, the
Threshers, which is on Pembroke

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Street in Dublin, but it was
actually September 3rd, 2018,

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nearly five years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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No.
Well Pete, it is.

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It's great to be on and sorry
alone could enjoin, but yeah,

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that's right.
You and Owen were kind of there

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when I started making Footprints
in Dublin, kind of talking to

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different Some folks and I
guess, I guess what's typically

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done and so we should talk to
this other yank called Pete

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Townsend and I think that's how
I wondered ended up in your

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tracks.
Yeah, that was my Santa Maria.

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So shout-out to my thank you.
Maya Jackson.

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Thank you.
My she's awesome.

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So let's get started with just
give us a rundown an intro into

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and to patch up inch bit and how
you got to this point with what

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you're up to and what that is.
Okay, well that's a that's a

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broad way to begin but let me
let me give it a stab.

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So I'm with middlegame Ventures
for an early-stage content BC

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focusing on the European market
and I guess about five years ago

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I started scouting Europe for
another office for us.

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We were based in Luxembourg and
we were close to launching our

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first fund and I was spending
time in Ireland talking to

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potential LPS talking to folks
in the ecosystem talking to Art

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ups and for a host of reasons, I
decided to push forward with

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Ireland.
And that's kind of how I ended

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up here talking to you.
So I guess to give some context

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my entire career has been spent
in financial services.

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I've started out on the sell
side, research at Merrill Lynch

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and Morgan Stanley as a research
analyst covering Banks asset

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managers exchanges and financial
technology before it was called

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then Tech.
And you know, this Is pre-crisis

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and it was a very interesting
time, obviously a lot of growth

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and then a lot of pain with the
Advent of the crisis and I had

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an opportunity coming out of
that crisis to return to

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Washington.
I had gone to school in

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Washington DC and you know,
always had an interest and

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public policy and getting
involved at some stage and the

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Stars had never really aligned
for a host of reasons.

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Including I'm a Democrat and
there wasn't really a democratic

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Administration in the early
2000's, that makes a lot of

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sense.
So, what I wanted to ask you a

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bit about as well, is that your
role as Deputy, assistant

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secretary at the US Department
of Treasury?

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We served as a first executive
director of the financial

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stability, oversight Council.
That's a mouthful, right?

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That very topical experience in
light of what's happened in the

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u.s. in the last few weeks.
Any insights from your prior

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rolls on on, what you see going
on over there right now.

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So when Obama was elected and
you had the financial There was

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kind of the moment was right for
me to sort of, take the plunge

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and try and do something in DC
and not as fortunate, enough to

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land at Treasury and help stand
up an office called the

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financial stability, oversight
Council, which is basically

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charged with connecting.
All the dots across the US

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Financial system among the
different regulators and among

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the different data that's
provided by companies.

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And across different markets, to
make sure systemic risks, do not

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fall beneath the cracks and
clearly that was one of the core

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lessons of the Financial crisis.
So that the US has very much a

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balkanized regulatory system,
and you weren't going to create

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an Uber regulator in charge of
everything, you're going to kind

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of keep all the Regulators in
place because, you know,

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Congress wasn't going to back
the significant regulatory

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restructuring.
So the compromise was creating

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this entity in the US, Treasury
Department called the financial

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stability, oversight Council.
And so to your question on sdb,

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I mean, yes, certainly the last
few weeks have brought back

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memories of my time in DC.
I, I love My role in DC, but I

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feel certain amount of empathy
for my colleagues who are sick,

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who are there right now, because
I can imagine they're not

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getting a lot of sleep and
they're dealing with a whole lot

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of different issues.
And, you know, I think when you

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look at SV B, it's certainly a
teachable moment for, you know,

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Bank management, team
regulators.

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And of course, shareholders.
And I think there's a lot of

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work to be done.
Yeah, yeah.

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There definitely is.
And you know, there was SV B and

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obviously Silver Gate before
them and then Signature Bank and

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First Republic almost went under
And it's just been, it's been

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one after the other but it's,
you know, I think covid just

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changed the world not only from
a health and human perspective.

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But from a financial perspective
it's just been so many

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unexpected bumps and troughs and
just injections of capital and

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interest rates and everything
that have just created this.

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This macroeconomic Quagmire
almost around the world and it's

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going to take awhile to get out
of it.

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But listen, you know, wanted to
really hear more.

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From you about the fund as well.
When you and I first met Patrick

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back in 2018, I had just parked
the second of four Venture

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Capital fund launch but I had
been involved with between 2016

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and 2021 and was unknowingly
moving on to my third

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unsuccessful project to get a
fun launched, you guys have done

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well, in getting your foothold
into the Irish market with the

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Irish focus on, maybe tell us a
bit about the strategy for

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Staying in Ireland, and how
you've gone about that and what

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some of the learnings are.
Yeah, yeah, no great.

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Obviously foundational question.
So we, as I as I noted at the

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onset here, when we set up the
fund we we all got together in

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2017.
My two partners that came out of

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a fairly large fun, but through
a family office structure.

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So they kind of came out this
with a significant track record

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and had some strong operational
experience and my background was

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a little Morkul obviously on the
regulatory side as well as on

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the incumbent Financial Services
side and I think as you know,

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Pete when you're setting up a
fund its you know that you

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couldn't kind of dream and a lot
is possible and it's only when

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you get the capital you can kind
of actually do things.

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And so at that stage you know,
through talking and getting to

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know my partner's, you know, we
decided to make a run at it and

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you know I joined up with them
in 2017 and then you know fast

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forward Word 23 years.
And after a lot of fundraising,

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we set up the fund and we decide
to have a European fintech Focus

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because we believed we could
have three partners that would

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maximize our kind of Leverage in
the European market.

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Given our touch points in the US
as well as across Europe and you

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know, being fintech specialist
to that would be something

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differentiated we thought would
be welcomed.

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And initially, you know, coming
to Ireland, you know, clearly

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there's some interesting
fintechs we had a supportive,

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Enterprise Ireland, and Some
other LPS and and generally

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speaking, obviously, Dublin
Airport, CZ the rest of the

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continents, but relatively easy
to get to it's a good

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jumping-off point to the rest of
the continent.

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But yeah.
I think what has surprised us is

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the amount of activity and the
quality of a lot of the startups

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and we've done six Investments
through the fund, that was

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launched in 2019 and the, you
know, kind of through those

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touch points.
We realize, well, there's a way

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here to get involved, actually
earlier and the Legacy C fund

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more a series, a focus fund, and
we decide well, yeah, we should

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start talking to people at the
see stage level and, and really

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kind of get in on the ground
floor.

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And and that's what motivated us
to pursue a seed fund again with

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the support of Enterprise
Ireland.

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And that were in the process of
doing a final close for the

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coming months.
And we've already made for small

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Investments, through that
thought.

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And then we have two or three
more in the pipeline.

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But again, I think where we sit
we're in the Fortunate position

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of being a detect, specific fund
that can help startups scale

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commercially, whether it's
across Europe and into the u.s.

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through a strategic Partnerships
or help with subsequent funding

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rounds or even the current
funding round by bringing in

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other investors.
That, you know, we there either

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within the Irish Market or
outside the Irish Market, but

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you often tag is a little bit of
a different animal and I think

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sometimes it helps to have an
investor on board who can help

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validate and help you know,
really take a Hands-On.

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Roll and and helping bring other
investors in and then help that

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business scale as it moves
forward, definitely definitely.

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And what are some of the basic
metrics in terms of check size

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and you know, the kind of
traction that you look for and

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those types of things.
So we'll invest from seed

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through Series be across both
fun Vehicles, specifically at

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the seed level so it's not
there.

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You know at the sort of the more
mature level will put in you

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know we'll go up to seven
million but at the seed level we

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can go Low as 250 300 and will
probably max out of it a little

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over 1 million and you know
obviously as you know P that the

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seed level it's really all about
team and technology and product.

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You know traction is great but
it's sort of optional but you

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know if there's some evidence of
traction.

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Yeah we'll take that but yeah,
we're really trying to

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understand.
Is this a you know back a couple

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team and ab a couple solution
and you know, is there something

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we can Can kind of help move
along and I think that the one

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metric we we try to hit it here
too in terms of our engagement

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as just have as many meetings as
possible, get to know the

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founder and the founding team
and you know, really understand

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what vertical they're going
after.

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And you know, if everything adds
up then let's try and move

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forward together.
I got you.

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Yeah.
And that was one of the big

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lessons learned that Owen.
And I talked through when he

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asked me about what I thought
from the first thousand deals

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that I've looked at through
techstars and it was investors

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invest in lines.
Dots.

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And like you said, have as many
engagements interactions you can

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with people, right?
Yeah, yeah.

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I mean that that that's
absolutely right and I think you

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know you'll never regret taking
another meeting in a start-up,

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you're interested in because you
always learn something more and

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I think it's not just the
founder and the CEO, it's who

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does that person's around him or
herself with, you know, what's

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the quality of their better
team?

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What's the interaction?
Like and it's you know, it's a

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learning journey.
I mean we're not trying to

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torture people but you do need
to invest the time and it's

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frankly, it's that the founder
needs to invest the time also

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because when a seed investor
comes on, I mean that's

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generally going to be kind of a
long relationship and they'll be

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many twists and turns and
they'll probably be, you know,

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hopefully good times but they'll
be some uncomfortable

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conversations and some difficult
choices along the road and and

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ideally, if you're in a position
where you can pick your

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investors, and it's important
that the startup does that due

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diligence also be Because, you
know, while you know capitals

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capital and that's important,
you also want a strategic

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Capital to help, you know really
be a partner as the founder

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grows the business.
Yeah.

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Definitely at what you just said
there is, critically important

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pick your investors, right?
And that is what I say to

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Founders is you need to go out
and do the research on your

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Market in the same degree or
with the same degree of

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voracious as the craziest sales
person you've ever met research

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is their Target customers.
Right.

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And that you need to understand,
investors need to understand, is

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it, you know, do they even vast
in my stage?

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Are they writing the checks
eyes?

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Are they investing in this
thematic that I'm involved with

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and there's so many things that
go into this that a lot of

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Founders, sometimes when they're
new to fundraising, they think

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well, although they must not
like me.

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They must not like me at all.
And usually, we as, from an

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investor perspective, it's me.
It's not you, you know, and that

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you've got investors behind you,
right?

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That you've signed up.
And That they've agreed to

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certain covenants and
requirements in terms and so on

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00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,100
and so forth that when you
talked about the check size and

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what rounds you're going to
invest in that's because you've

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made some representations
investors, right?

249
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Yeah yeah I mean yeah and so
going through your first funding

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round can be quite painful and
emotional experience for all

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involved because the lawyers
tend to take over and you know

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obviously key goal of both
parties is to you know kind of

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limit that the pain and time and
money that's spent on that

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process.
But you know, that that is

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Steaks for taking institutional
money and I think that's the

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first question.
The founder should ask him or

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herself is do I need Venture
Capital, you know?

258
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Because you know they're frankly
a lot cheaper ways to fund your

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business and luck.
Lot less dilutive and some

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businesses, you know, main that
may not be the right choice and

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you know, so that's kind of like
that threshold question and the

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other thing is you know, don't
necessarily wait to your need

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capital All to start talking to
investors.

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And it's, you know, I think of
their a lot of Founders out

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there.
And I think these are just as

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guilty of this is, you know,
waiting until a startup is in

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the market and then the outbound
and inbound, you know, I think

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the most valuable thing is, you
know, having a conversation with

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the founder a year before
they're raising capital and,

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and, you know, not to give away
kind of our secrets.

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As you know, you get a lot from
that conversation.

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You understand, you kind of
develop a This in terms of what

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they're trying to do with the
business and you have a much

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00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,600
more productive follow-up
conversation but in that six

275
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months later, 12 months later
and you kind of have your check

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marks in your in your map to
kind of gauge that conversation

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with.
And you know I've peed I'm

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actually reminded of you know
back in the pre covid dance.

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When I was over here, I think
you introduced me to a great

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founder at the other Keith CEO
circuit and I can't say it was

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2018 or 2019.
So I 2019 Yeah, I met with him

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and, you know, obviously circuit
very impressive in terms of what

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they're creating confirmation
platform for the audit space and

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and much more now today.
But, you know, frankly it was

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very early days and, you know, I
didn't necessarily understand or

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00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,300
appreciate, you know, the market
opportunity but in and we, you

287
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:43,000
know, we didn't invest at that
stage.

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But, you know, he came back and
we talked, you know, a year ago

289
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400
and You know, he acts appearing
on everything.

290
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,300
He said he would three years
prior and then some and you know

291
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:58,900
it made it a very easy decision
to decide to co-lead the series

292
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:03,600
a when that hit the market early
last year because we kind of had

293
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200
that reference point for from 23
years prior.

294
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,300
And again, this is somewhat of
an extreme example because there

295
00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,900
was a three year gap between
conversations but you know again

296
00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:17,100
it's you know, just getting in
the conversation and you know,

297
00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:19,700
if nothing else.
Else be selfish about that.

298
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:22,600
You know, obviously this is the
VC is being selfish in the sense

299
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,900
of wanting to know you and you
know, quote unquote, develop a

300
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,600
cheat sheet for follow-up
conversations but the startup

301
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,800
founder should be selfish to in
terms of testing the decease,

302
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,000
getting a sense for what they
can do in terms of

303
00:16:34,008 --> 00:16:37,800
introductions, what can they do?
Terms of how will, you know, and

304
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,100
and kind of, you know, getting
your pitch together.

305
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,200
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
David is great.

306
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,900
Founder.
Shout out to David Heath,

307
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,300
absolutely.
He's close enough to me

308
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:49,500
neighborhood wise but I know
he's And quite intensely focused

309
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:53,700
on even scaling circuit to, you
know, to a huge degree recently.

310
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:57,600
So I, you know, the one of the
interesting things about I think

311
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,000
thinking back a few years is
that it was a different

312
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,900
landscape back then, pre covid.
And I remember, reading

313
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:09,500
something on your website on the
middlegame ventures website that

314
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:13,900
I'm like I totally identified
with and I saw some of, you

315
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:17,800
know, what circuit was doing in,
what you guys were interested

316
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,300
in.
In investing in and, you know,

317
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,400
there's a lot to that name
middle game.

318
00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,599
Right?
And I know, I think it's Pascal

319
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,099
your partner.
Who is a big fan of Chess is

320
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:30,300
any, but that's, right, that's
right at the middle game, is a

321
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,900
chest turn, and not a gaming
term?

322
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:35,300
Exactly, exactly.
There's the beat, there's the

323
00:17:35,308 --> 00:17:37,800
beginning game.
There's the endgame in chess and

324
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,700
it's how you execute in the
middle game.

325
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,900
That is critically important.
And, you know, I think that

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00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:47,300
resonates with both the stage of
where you're investing in that,

327
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:49,500
you've got to get them.
To the middle game, you know,

328
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:53,600
and that at that point they're
raising capital from instead of

329
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,100
the, you know, up to seven
million range, they're raising

330
00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:00,400
it up to 50 to 100 million range
but also then, you know, looking

331
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,700
at the financial markets and
fintech and how all that's

332
00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:07,100
unfolded and seeing that there's
so much opportunity in what

333
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,700
happens in the middle of
Finance, right?

334
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:13,400
And that there's so many
opportunities to provide new

335
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,300
Solutions in there.
They can just make the Global

336
00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:17,900
Financial system operate
smoothly.

337
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,700
Either.
And, you know, it's always hard

338
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,400
when you're trying to invest in
things that are, you know,

339
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,700
bringing costs down rather than
creating new Revenue.

340
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,000
But if you have the right
approach and you've got people

341
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,500
who are experienced in that
space, they could tell the ones

342
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,500
that are really going to make a
difference in the middle game

343
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,200
versus those that will just be
afterthoughts, right?

344
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,400
Yeah, that that's very
articulate and well-stated.

345
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,000
Yeah, we should have you help us
with our coffee, on our website.

346
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,900
You can pull these things out of
thin air or something.

347
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,000
Patrick.
So that's all that for what it's

348
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,500
worth.
But but thinking it thinking

349
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:57,000
about, you know, as I mentioned
earlier, Owen and I did have

350
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,000
that chat.
We talked about the Lessons

351
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,000
Learned, we talked about
Investors investing in lines,

352
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,900
not dots and you're clearly
speaking to that in this

353
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:07,600
conversation, we're having right
now.

354
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:13,300
Are there any models that you
apply yourself in terms of the

355
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,500
first conversations that you're
having with Founders?

356
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:19,700
And what are some of the, the
The signals that you look for,

357
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,600
obviously not giving it all
away, right?

358
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,200
You don't want people, you know,
acting to, to cover off what you

359
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,100
and I are talking about right
now in terms of the

360
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:29,600
conversations going to have with
you.

361
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,000
But I have this, you know, Team
market traction product that I

362
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,800
work into every conversation and
I try to take all four of those

363
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,700
boxes and make it a natural
conversation.

364
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:40,900
We have that natural
conversation, things tend to

365
00:19:40,908 --> 00:19:43,800
come out of the wash anything
that you try to follow to keep

366
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,500
things moving smoothly when
you're chatting with with

367
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:46,500
Founders.
Yeah.

368
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:50,600
Yeah, that was I think you Your
framework is spot-on.

369
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,800
I mean, the earlier, the
company, the more focus on team

370
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,500
and Technology the later stage,
the company, the more focus on

371
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:05,400
on the market fit, and, and the
ability to scale and and then

372
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,200
kind of anything in between
comes in between.

373
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:12,800
And, you know, I think that the
challenge is when you're in the

374
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,000
market and you're investing
across Europe and you're looking

375
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,100
at an early stage startups,
you're going to talk a lot of

376
00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:24,500
people and the the challenge is
to kind of arrive at some quick

377
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:29,200
nose and and that also be able
to decide which are the ones you

378
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,600
want to follow up with and spend
more time on because I think the

379
00:20:32,608 --> 00:20:36,400
biggest challenge for an
investor is it is prioritizing

380
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,400
one's time and in order to help
do that and not saying we always

381
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,800
get it right is to, you know,
have a view on kind of, you

382
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,600
know, what are the sectors that
are most promising and Stan,

383
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,500
which startups are operating and
that environment and you know,

384
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:56,300
try and get in front of them
earlier than you need to to

385
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,300
develop a relationship to become
smarter on that sector but also

386
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:02,500
to understand what individual
startups are doing.

387
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:06,000
And then you know, obviously
when you have that first

388
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,700
conversation, it's really
getting a sense for that founder

389
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,700
and you know, particularly at
the seed level because, you

390
00:21:12,708 --> 00:21:15,700
know, whenever they show you on
your deck, you know, we talked

391
00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:19,600
about reference points and, and
kind of Building a map, whatever

392
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,200
they show you on that deck.
If it's really going to come to

393
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,500
fruition whether it's a
financial statement, with the

394
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:26,600
business plan, they're going to
be a lot of pivots.

395
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,800
The the, the hockey stick will
be flattened a little bit and,

396
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:34,100
you know, that's just a given
but it's understanding kind of

397
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:38,200
the resilience of the founder
and the ability to kind of Bob

398
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,100
and weave as the market, you
know, punches you in the face or

399
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:47,300
or things happen, and you have
to put it and yeah, I think you

400
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:52,400
know the whole Grail of
Founders, is that, that Vision,

401
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:58,000
that strategic Vision to sort of
Sierra Market opportunity, and

402
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,000
then develop the technology of
the solution to take advantage

403
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,900
of that opportunity.
But but that's just one part of

404
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:07,900
it.
The other part, which is not as

405
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:12,700
sexy as, you know, having that
operational discipline to build

406
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:17,300
a team and to set near term and
medium term and longer term

407
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,800
goals.
And hold people accountable day

408
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,900
in and day out and that's more
of a grind.

409
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,200
And and that's the lonely part
of the founders journey and

410
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,600
that's very difficult to assess
based on our first meeting.

411
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,400
And, you know, obviously that's
where kind of comes into play.

412
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,600
Well, does the CEO certain
strengths and art and does, does

413
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,700
he or she have certain
weaknesses and how does the team

414
00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:43,800
complement or exacerbate that?
And I think, frankly they're,

415
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,700
you know, there's been a few
times where I think we talked to

416
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,900
a very interesting Very
promising founder and then you

417
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:52,800
talk to the rest of the team and
you're wondering well, what kind

418
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,600
of team is this person building?
So you know there can be some,

419
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:58,300
you know, false positives, and
negative positive is a positive

420
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:01,000
negatives or however you want to
phrase that but you know, you

421
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,000
get that with discussions but
the the initial sort of fork in

422
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,200
the road is, you know, trying to
make quick decisions as to is

423
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,900
this a start-up or a vertical
you want to spend more time

424
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,500
online and and then don't be shy
about following up and having as

425
00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:20,800
they touch points as possible.
Do you guys do default to and

426
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,200
fall back on specific areas
within fintech where you know

427
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,100
that you're going to be able to
necessarily contribute the most

428
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:29,400
but at least stay on top of
things.

429
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,900
The most and being able to point
people in the right direction

430
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,800
and make introductions for them
after the investment.

431
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,500
Yeah.
And so that's, you know, the

432
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:41,000
good thing about fintech.
It's a very broad space and

433
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,800
there are multiple different
verticals.

434
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:49,200
Yeah, I think, as a Practice and
they all sort of consistent with

435
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,500
our investment themes.
We're very much be to be focused

436
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:56,100
and I don't think we've done
anything direct-to-consumer

437
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:59,900
there, maybe a little bit of
that, but it's not a primary

438
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,300
driver of any of the businesses
we've invested in which is not

439
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:06,500
to say there aren't big b2c
companies out there, it's just

440
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,700
that's less core to our
expertise.

441
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:11,100
I mean we come from be
institutionalized world and

442
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:14,800
financial services but you know,
I think generally speaking, you

443
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,400
know, We want to dust and and
and and Founders and teams

444
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,900
where, you know, we can be
involved.

445
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:25,400
We can roll up our sleeves, we
can take a board seat.

446
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,000
We can leverage your network and
you know, our, you know, our

447
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,600
core areas of expertise or
another incumbent space

448
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,300
obviously in the regulatory
space.

449
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:40,100
And that's the the the thing to
remember here is fintech is a

450
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:43,100
lot different than some of these
other Tech verticals.

451
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,300
It's been a late relatively Late
Bloomer and and I think you

452
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:48,800
talked about that that
middleware and you know, when

453
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,700
you're talking about middle game
and and that's, you know, back

454
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:58,800
in the late 90s, the BET back in
the late 2009. 2010 2011, you

455
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,900
saw that ConEd being digitized.
Now, we're kind of in that

456
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:06,000
middle, we're being digitized
and and then and we're slowly

457
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,100
starting to see it in the core.
And the way I like to kind of

458
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:15,600
explain that is again, sort of
using my old cell site research.

459
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,900
Out here.
When, you know, I was used to

460
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:23,000
cover the exchange space and and
it was going electronic and the

461
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,600
then sort of the life cycle of
taking an instrument that was

462
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,700
traded.
Let's say on the nymex or on the

463
00:25:30,708 --> 00:25:32,700
floor of the New York Stock
Exchange.

464
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,000
And putting that on a screen is
very compelling because you're

465
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,300
essentially digitizing it and
you're making it, you're taking

466
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:44,100
out the friction, you're
reducing the costs and so

467
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:49,200
therefore you get more Hume you
you rewire it, you expand access

468
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,400
and and you lower costs and
those are all the factors were

469
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,600
seeing and financial services.
As we think about it.

470
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,100
Being digitized taking out the
friction, reducing the costs

471
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,700
expanding access and you know,
out of that hoping to become a

472
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,000
host of new products and you see
they have a companies like way

473
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,200
flyer.
You see that with companies,

474
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,200
like circuit, the startups that
are able to sort of connect the

475
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,100
dots and build digital,
ecosystems in new models, Didn't

476
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,100
exist previously.
And and that to us is is the

477
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,500
real big opportunity and you can
kind of start going down some of

478
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:26,400
the different verticals whether
it's in capital markets asset

479
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,900
management or open finance, open
banking but that to us is what

480
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,700
gets really excited.
And the opportunity here is, is

481
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,600
immense because unlike other,
you know, if you're talking

482
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,800
about a Google or Microsoft or
even a meta, those aren't the

483
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,200
same type of companies in terms.
As of their ability to innovate,

484
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,800
its banks and banks are very
poor innovators.

485
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:55,300
They can't attract the talent.
They can't retain the talent and

486
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,900
even if they had the technology,
they wouldn't necessarily be

487
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:01,400
able to Pioneer it so that they
had the assets.

488
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,600
But they're always going to look
for a partner on the outside to,

489
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,900
to sort of implement and drive
that technology forward and and,

490
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:12,500
and it's great for us as
investors and participants in

491
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:16,500
the context space because, you
know, there's a partner And and

492
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:19,500
there's an investor there and
there's a potential exit there.

493
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:23,800
And, you know, I our role is
driven a lot by helping, you

494
00:27:23,808 --> 00:27:26,400
know, particularly countries in
Ireland where, you know, that

495
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200
the local incumbent
infrastructure isn't as

496
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,500
developed and let's say the UK
or the u.s. is providing them.

497
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:37,600
The touch points to help test
their product and help scale

498
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,600
their product with other
weapons.

499
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,400
Yeah.
Yeah.

500
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,500
And you you touched on a
critical point there in that,

501
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,400
you know, Looking at the
financial systems and seeing

502
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,200
opportunities to improve the
killer word there.

503
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,100
Her killer phrase, you use is
increased volumes and grow

504
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:02,000
volumes increased throughput and
the ability to just unlock and

505
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,900
remove this friction, allows
Revenue to be created.

506
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:10,600
And it's not just, okay, we're
making the machine work better.

507
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,800
It's that what you can build on
top of that, better version of

508
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,300
the machine in order to Sell
more, right?

509
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:20,300
It's all more financial products
and it's, yeah, I love the way

510
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:24,500
that you pull that all together.
It's thinking about Patrick the,

511
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,500
you know, your journey itself,
or your journey yourself that

512
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,500
you.
And I talked about this once is

513
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:35,700
that, you know, stepping into
Venture Capital that, you know,

514
00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:39,700
they're all different ways that
you can find a reference point

515
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:41,800
for the world that you are
stepping into.

516
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,900
And whether that's podcast,
whether that's reading whether

517
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:49,200
that's Whatever there are, there
are ways to do it.

518
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,800
But I think what you said to me,
that time, is that only way to

519
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,300
really learn?
It is to do it, right?

520
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,900
Have there been some surprises
to you about what you thought?

521
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:01,600
The world of venture capital was
going to look like before you

522
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,900
got into it based upon what
you've seen over the last few

523
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:08,400
years?
Yeah no I mean it's a as you

524
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:14,100
know that there really is no
manual to being a good early

525
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:18,100
stage investor and I think, you
know, obviously the table Stakes

526
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:22,500
or understanding the markets
you're investing in and, and

527
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:29,000
then, you know, having that
Compass to, you know, prioritize

528
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,200
your time.
But I, you know, looked I think

529
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,800
in terms of kind of the the
Lessons Learned is, I think you

530
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,800
have to constantly be curious,
you know?

531
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,000
You have to, you know, you have
to constantly be talking to

532
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,900
people.
You have to constantly be

533
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:46,500
challenging your assumptions.
And it's also, Good to surround

534
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:50,400
yourself with Partners who kind
of look at the world, maybe

535
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,000
through a different lens.
And you know, so you kind of you

536
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,300
know the sum is greater than the
the individual Parts in terms of

537
00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:01,900
you know making a decisions and
challenging different areas of

538
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:06,000
where to play and then you know,
I think that that's in finding

539
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,600
deal flow and and it making the
decision decision there but, you

540
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,600
know, frankly, you know if we're
doing our job and we're

541
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,400
succeeding as a dusters ninety
percent of the time will be just

542
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,400
a supporting actor and as
startups journey and, you know,

543
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,000
it's the founder that's driving
that and we just have to make

544
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,300
sure that that person and that
team, you know, has all the

545
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:34,000
tools that they might need or
might not know, they need to in

546
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,500
order to be successful and I
think we'll, you know, what,

547
00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:42,000
what I learned is, you know, a
lot of your your best performing

548
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,000
companies from a, I guess
returns perspective to LPS, Are

549
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,300
are not always the ones you
spend the most time on means.

550
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:52,600
It's the ones that, you know,
have to engineer pivot.

551
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,400
Or, you know, have have really
hit up against the wall in terms

552
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,900
of their product or their
Marketplace.

553
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:02,200
And, you know, a lot of
gratification at least from the

554
00:31:02,208 --> 00:31:04,100
investor side.
You know, it's also a lot of

555
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:07,800
pain on both sides but you know,
helping that founder kind of

556
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,100
navigate that journey and
hopefully you know, finding a

557
00:31:11,108 --> 00:31:15,100
way out of particular
predicament and securing some

558
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:18,500
sort of Ask that gives that
start up some momentum that

559
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:21,100
wasn't there before.
I mean, there's a lot of

560
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:23,800
satisfaction on that.
So so when I look back on kind

561
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,800
of what we've been able to
accomplish over the last three

562
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,900
or four years, I mean sure you
know you'd love every investment

563
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:33,300
to be a 10x and more but you
know, they're ones that are less

564
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:35,400
than that.
But would have been a lot less

565
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,400
had we not been able to help and
there's a lot of satisfaction

566
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,200
from that and, you know, I just
from a personal standpoint.

567
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:45,400
Yeah, I've been lucky to spend
mine.

568
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,500
Entire career in financial
services.

569
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,300
Doing it from the research
analyst side and then the

570
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:52,800
regulatory side.
But, you know, when you're

571
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:56,700
investing it's basically you're
wearing a different hat every

572
00:31:56,700 --> 00:32:00,500
day and you know, every hour of
the day, it's a different hat.

573
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,800
And, you know, you have to
transition very quickly from

574
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:07,300
looking at startups to you know,
helping with the board to

575
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,300
dealing with lawyers and it's
not always fun and exhilarating

576
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:15,400
but the Arc of it is extremely
gratifying and you know getting

577
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,800
too Different touch points along
the founders Journey because at

578
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,100
the end of the day, I made that
what you asked, what surprised

579
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:25,000
me, and I'm kind of down about
this in a long roundabout way.

580
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,800
I have so much admiration and
offer for, for a start-up

581
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,400
founder.
Yeah, I've never been a Founder.

582
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,700
So, I mean, I'm like, yeah,
that's probably not a great

583
00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:39,600
thing, but I've done other
things and, you know, I think

584
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,600
being a Founder takes a lot of
guts, it takes a lot of

585
00:32:42,608 --> 00:32:47,900
persistence and, you know, and
And it's quite a lonely journey,

586
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:50,700
in the sense that, you know,
there aren't that many other

587
00:32:50,700 --> 00:32:54,100
people who you can talk to and
kind of bounce ideas off of.

588
00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:58,500
And, you know, if we can kind of
be a resource along that road, I

589
00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:02,200
think we're doing a good job.
And that's, that's been a key

590
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,200
learning.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

591
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,900
And, you know, empathy and
Humanity can go a long way,

592
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,900
right?
And that it it's It's crazy with

593
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:17,000
this investment process.
This investment framework that

594
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,500
it's hey, we're investing in
people right at the earliest

595
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:21,600
stages, you're investing in
people.

596
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,600
Like you said, you know, a
little while ago and that it's

597
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,400
that when one of these fails,
it's heartbreaking because

598
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,700
you're so emotionally involved.
Because not only are you trying

599
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:35,300
to be an advisor and you are an
investor but you're also a fan,

600
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:37,100
right?
You really want this Founders

601
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:41,000
succeed on the other end, when
you see someone just killing it.

602
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,800
Over and over and over again.
It's like how can I help?

603
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,700
You know?
And sometimes it's just, it's

604
00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:50,300
not what, you know, it's not.
Have you been through this

605
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:52,700
before?
It's not how have you dealt with

606
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:54,800
this challenge.
It's that, who can you introduce

607
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,800
me to?
And that's not always the hey,

608
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,500
an investor and, you know,
another investor help me build

609
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,600
out this round is just like you
said, someone else that, you

610
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,400
know, that's been through this
because you've got that Network,

611
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,400
you've got that experience, that
can be have a incredibly helpful

612
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,900
conversation with One of the
founders you invested in, you

613
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:16,900
know, and and that Humanity that
empathy for people is what makes

614
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:18,600
all the difference for me in the
space, you know.

615
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:22,900
Yeah.
Yeah and and, and that's a key

616
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:26,199
thing because you're going to
see Founders in a lot of

617
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,800
different positions in terms of
what they're going through.

618
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,600
And it's the euphoria that first
check in the door, whether it's

619
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,400
a funding round or your first
big commercial costumer and and

620
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,900
then they'll be, you know, other
twists and turns and and just

621
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:47,300
You know, being able to devote
the time and being a resource.

622
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:51,300
And, you know, creating actually
a space where you can have that

623
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:54,400
dialogue with a Founder.
There are founders who don't

624
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,900
like to say anything negative
and and and, and want to kind of

625
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:00,800
keep everything Rosie even when
the opposite is happening behind

626
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,000
the scenes.
So, you know, obviously we're

627
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,400
not doing our job at if we can't
have that open honest

628
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,800
communication.
Because I think that's the best

629
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,900
for all parties, definitely.
And, and Sincerely Patrick.

630
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,600
That's why you make such a great
mentor on the techstars web

631
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,000
three program, because you've
got that, you know, that

632
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,600
Humanity in that empathy.
So thank you for all that you do

633
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,500
for us.
Thank you.

634
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,200
Listen, we're at the point of
the chat where I know that if

635
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,900
Owen was here, he would ask his
favorite final famous question

636
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:31,700
that we asked everybody on this
podcast.

637
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,500
Patrick, pinch, MIT, what is one
thing that people would not

638
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:39,400
expect to know about you?
Well II guess Pete firm from one

639
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,000
American to another.
Erica and I guess I think but I

640
00:35:44,008 --> 00:35:47,600
meet a lot of people in town
that they sort of assumed.

641
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,800
I was kind of air-dropped into
Dublin several years ago.

642
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,600
But the truth is I you know I'm
actually half Irish and my

643
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,900
parents live in a small village
in County Limerick.

644
00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:02,300
So yeah, take that.
I I knew that.

645
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,700
I knew that but most most people
did not and it's the name pinch

646
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,300
mid that would would not give
that away.

647
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,100
Yeah, it's Patrick O'Dwyer
catchment if we're going to use

648
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,400
my mom's maiden name, alright.
Alright.

649
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,700
And know and you know, there's a
good good crew of folks that you

650
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:25,700
know over the years have dropped
into Ireland that and I mean

651
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,600
it's just what makes this
community here of people coming

652
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,400
at things from all different
angles, including our friend

653
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,000
Kurt Pittman, shut out to Kurt.
He's at he's from New Zealand,

654
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:36,900
right?
So there's you know a good bunch

655
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:38,300
of people anyway.
Listen.

656
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,800
Patrick, thank you so much for
coming out to the show.

657
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,200
We got into such a great chat
here.

658
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,200
This is one that we could keep
going and I know we'll keep

659
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,600
going with, you know, over the
years.

660
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,400
So thank you again and it really
appreciate you doing this with

661
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,800
us.
Thank you Pete for having me on

662
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,100
and look forward to catching up
again soon.

663
00:36:55,300 --> 00:37:00,500
Thank you.
That does it for this week,

664
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,100
folks.
Thanks to Patrick pinch made for

665
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:04,100
opening up his mind, to help us
figure out why he does what he

666
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:05,900
does.
You can learn more about Patrick

667
00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:08,200
and middlegame ventures in the
show, notes on our website money

668
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,200
never sleeps.
That IE, if you like what you

669
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,400
heard, please leave us a rating
and a review on Apple podcast or

670
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,300
Spotify.
Is it helps others to find the

671
00:37:15,308 --> 00:37:17,100
show?
Thanks to Conan, Brophy, from

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00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:18,500
create sound for mixing and
editing.

673
00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:21,200
This episode Conan is an
excellent medium and to get in

674
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,700
touch with when you're thinking
about launching your own

675
00:37:22,707 --> 00:37:25,300
podcast.
As for me, I'm an early stage,

676
00:37:25,300 --> 00:37:27,600
startup investor focused on
where fintech meets crypto and

677
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,700
crypto meets web 3 and I run the
Starts with three accelerator

678
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,800
there are plenty of links in the
show notes on money, never

679
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,500
sleeps die and how to get in
touch.

680
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:37,800
So don't hesitate to reach out
finally till next time, thanks

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00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,000
for listening.
See you