218: Dollar and a Dream | Igor Khmel and SaveChain

0:10 Hey there, I'll be down 10 and this is money. Never sleeps. We look inside the minds of entrepreneurs and the crossover of startups and our prize Finance technology and Life. As we know it, before we dive into this week's episode of money, never sleeps. Just a quick heads-up. That the eith Dublin hackathon. 2023 is just ahead of us in Dublin on. May 26th to 28th 2023. At Dogpatch labs and Dublin. You've Dublin is the first web, three focused hackathon conducted on the island of Ireland. The idea is to create a space for the community to build and attract talent to the web three ecosystem. Check out the details on eith Dublin, dot io on the show. This week, we've got Igor Kamel, co-founder and CEO of save chain. One of the twelve founding teams forming the techstars web, three accelerator class of 2023.

0:56 Save chain is the borderless banking app. It's a self custody. Will coin only wallet with a banking interface for the global. Underbanked with the option to open an FDIC insured bank account for non us residents in short, it's metal, mask meets revolute, originally from the Ukraine, but now based in the US Igor Kamel has been honing. His craft for the past 17 years, including experience in the investment banking, and corporate finance, practices of Deloitte and Mackenzie then a Stanford MBA then inventor, and as an entrepreneur in Residence with spur Bank. Ink. And he's now a third time founder and fintech and crypto in this episode. Eager and I slide down the Arc of his life and finance and Ventures that led to his inspiration for Save chain. The societal factors driving the need to pair a USD bank account with a stable coin wallet.

1:45 How eager expects? The trajectory of the save chain? Customer experience will evolve and the hurdles. Did save chain will need to clear to scale globally. All right here on money. Never sleeps. Igor. How's it going? Is good. Sunny day in California. Yeah. Lucky you lucky you and a couple weeks ago, you were not in. California were over here in Dublin, where to, yeah, yeah. There was like a place called techstars wealthy, we participate in right now and it starts for free and then you you left for a little while and then you came back and you came to my birthday party. So, thank you for coming to my birthday party. You're one of two techstars, Founders representing at the lemon and Duke.

2:29 Luke that night. So shout out to Kurt, Pittman as well, but we also had a bunch of mentors there. So Kira O'Grady was there. Jesus. You know Ma was there. Brian Elders, Alejandra, Gutierrez Martin Casas. Awesome. Have mall with a shout out to all those guys. It was fantastic. It was a lot of fun. And speaking of birthdays today, as we're recording this tonight at 10:00 Irish time 2 p.m. in the wonderful State of California. It is Bono's birthday from the band. U2 so I just for some reason A remembered random birthdays Bono happy birthday big 63. He is so Anyway, listen before we dig in to save chain, you've had a really interesting path to get you here.

3:15 Okay, so you move from Life, as a consultant, to a VC Scout corporate Innovation entrepreneur and residents. Ventures to life is a start-up founder. Now on your third round fin delivery Bank acts. Now save chain to some, it might seem like you jumped around a lot, but I'm kind of clearly see. Seeing this Arc towards a vision. Do you think it's been a Clear Vision for you so far or has it been just a nested set of experiences where the next thing that you go? After only really becomes clear, we are about to move on from the current thing.

3:57 So yeah, definitely. There is a blend there. So my life was bleated like by Stanford before stand that I wanted to work in finance and after stand that I wanted to build finance and in Stanford, there is the motto. It's called change lives, change organizations, change the world. And basically I get inspired by building something, which is a can be used by industries by like many people and will influence of the life of many people and In banking all my supplies previous experience, we're about to kind of to do open banking. So to make first half was head of innovation weapons Burbank. I was responsible for opening a system and acquiring companies integrating external Technologies with the bank and make Bank more personal more life, more smart and then I left and built up in delivery and Finn delivery. It's been caged a network like, making bank account to the people that is way far from the branches, where the no branches and And maybe branches are not needed. So then there was Bank X, which is asset-backed, security technovation protocol, which is complete crypto story for make security tokens and making as basically full of fungible and helping people like borrow money against the real estate or against just there like a piece of painting that is on the wall. So potentially can influence many people and save chain was continuation of that.

5:23 It's helping like people to get retail accounts. That's will walk like a bank, but soon will be more flexible and Global. So it's this is like the whole thing called, like, bank is a service open banking. This is what I'm doing. Okay. Yeah. Now it's good that the whole 2017, 2018 back experience, right of. All right, lesson learned institutional, too early for blockchain, right? Yeah. Now, let's kind of bring this down to the consumer level, right? Which is where We're all of this digital adoption this crypto adoption started and you know it just feels like yeah so I am seeing that Ark a bit more clear now. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

6:10 So in 2017, I made a bet that I built a company around idea that is going to be the regulation for security to talk and they will be my adoption on Enterprise and financial world of tokens security tokens as a new asset class and will be simplified rules. You should understand organs for trading the stock and send New Market will appear. So this didn't happen as for now. So, this Market didn't pick up because regulator just push it back. I hope this will happen. Like, in some time in the future, we'll know. I see it. Well, it definitely will. Yeah, it's just it, you know, these things are and I went through that whole process as well Igor. And, you know, the Enterprise blockchain story is one that is predicated on, massive change management, projects technology, change management projects that Surprises have to undertake.

6:58 And they have to undertake that together if they're collaborating with their Bank competitors out there. And there's just way too much political Capital at the top of these big wedge institutions right now, to be able to undertake these massive, huge change projects with other banking outfits, right? What we had to go through that the first time to learn all, that all of this made so much sense to do. And I think, now, we're at a stage where it's a bunch of us out there who are thinking a couple years ahead of the In terms of the adoption of digital assets. And I think this is where, you know, where you've landed now with save chain. Yeah so the best from even before Krypton from my experience of like how they're newcomers like just drop the banking. So the first start with the consumer model so because the banks that don't nobody want to be like first player he there. So the best way to kind of to build something like a standard in the industry need to feels to do a consumer play. Consumer story.

7:57 And then add as Co way, they want to just have the same and then you are deciding whether you want to keep this consumer story, only for you or you want to become as a service and make everybody like, basically plug into you on this consumer story. So, this is pretty much what's happening could save chain and the vision was to build it basically bank without bank account and make, like, a new type of financial institution. And there's that gonna solve the problem that was recently. You're at the with the starting from X DX and grip, the funds were I misplaced and ending with like the current problems with the original banks in the S. So there was recently a problem Silicon Valley Bank signature first Republica and then the full list of the banks that in trouble right now because of the interest rate hike, it's 700 Regional Banks, 700 banks in the as the potentially can go bankrupt.

8:50 So, and the people like the people afraid, people are afraid and the some corporations they can lose money. And they already implement the strategies for how they can split fans, too many banks to cover with regulate, with 250k per account insurance. It's yeah, it's, I never, I never expected this like happen in the yes, I saw this. Some something like that in Ukraine. And I never expected that I see, like something like that in the ass, but it's reality. And yeah, I mean it's happened before. It'll happen again like there's this this podcast called on the brink. And they're opening kind of theme music and announcer for that it refers to something that happened and it's like a CNBC announcer something talking about the government.

9:38 Start to print all this money and all of a sudden people get a little nervous and out of this worry comes something called Bitcoin and that was something that was recorded back in 2008. And now we're going through this like Regional Bank crisis and it's like all these people that are concerned about their money in Regional. Banks and out of this worry, comes the non-custodial wallet, right? Exactly, exactly. So I, yeah, the people and usually, and usually, we wanted to build this product for emerging markets only. So, for the people who like, struggling to get access to yes door to, like, modern banking Western banking, accounts Western banking products. But right now with this situation, we see a lot of also interest from us and from develop markets as well, because the people want to make sure that the funds that they Have it's not just bang funds is that?

10:29 The bank is only like service institution but they have full control of these funds. And so this car we this is a model of non-custodial world. Yeah. On that note, let's kind of take that from the top right that you've talked about save chain is being met a mask meets Revolution right and but just to kind of lay this all out for folks can you tell me what is safe chain? And how's it going to work? Yeah, so save chain isn't no banking application. So what does it mean? So it's like you're downloading the application and you have there, you open account and this account is for adding this stage, only four doors. So, it's basically one currency Condor they think, is that for this account, you can we will be able to issue card. You'll be able to do like somebody optional stuff, like, send money to your friend, with the mail. You can, you'll be able in the future to basically make some interest.

11:26 On this account like five, maybe eight percent interest rate. The, the what special with this account that this account is not in the bank, or any institution, which is like used to be all the previous generation of, no, banks could engrave a loot, which is my my class. And by the way, I found it. So all of them, they rely on existing banking rails for this no banks. So they are. Their product was user experience. The try to simplify the trying to reduce increase user. Spot on the, under the hood there was all the same, like, Bank rails, like Swift and traditional. In our, in our case, under the hood there is not a bank in rails, there is a blockchain, there is crew, the most reliable and scalable technologies that is a, that is basically a started. And we're testing for the last five years. So we are taking this, and this case right now, we're working on polygon, but we open like and make test with other chains. So this is the chains that have the highest SLA, seriously So agreement.

12:27 So they do not go down and, and they don't have history of, like, hacking out to be cocteau to be like laws and funds. So, so, we're going with that and also we going with the most reliable stable coins, which is already upon the market for a while doors. The book winds, which is used DC and the u.s. DT. So use DC when State when there was recent bank note down and right now, it's basically to to the most stable, stable coins. So I'm making we're making this bank. That is pretty much look like a user like Anyone who do Pay Pal. But inside it has like wallet, like, metal mask, and this means the user in charge and the user control fully their funds. But they user experiences like banking since for instance in the what's different between Walt and the bank you can lose your application, the bank and still recover account, if you lost your private key odor, like a wallet and you forgot your private key, you can lose the funds.

13:22 It's one of the main problems with the crypto wallet. So we we implement the technology called chaos recovery and the same. You sure it's secret and PC to basically to enable recovery of the key. So it means for you, as a user, you have account, you have this application, which is like she'll application. And then you have separate password that only, you know, we don't know this password where there is your recovery key at Amazon and basically, you install the application. And then you recover your vote within this application and you got your fans. So so this makes like a less recovery. The second thing is a guest piece, so we don't want users to be deal with guess peace and be aware about the that it's complicated.

14:03 Technology has its under the hood. So we take care about the guest fees and topic Awards automatically for the next five transactions by Guess view, which is Magic in this case. So for users to just move free experience as they would be like no bank but it's on chain and fully controlled by using Very good. All right. We'll listen, let me give you an example and then you tell me how it's going to work on Save chain. Okay, so I just received a thousand dollars or a thousand USD C, which is the USD stable coin, which is issued by Circle, as we talked about and that was received into my metal mask wallet, okay?

14:46 Which is a non-custodial wallet and I wanted to actually use that to pay Um, bills in fiat currency in traditional currency. So, what did I do? I sent that using wallet address to a custodial wallet that has a Fiat off ramp, or a feat traditional currency, off-ramp, so, I sent it to my custodial wallet, I then converted and sold the u.s. DC, and I converted that to Euro, and then I move the euro to my Neo bank account. Which is completely different. So, one, two, three, four hops, yeah. Okay.

15:27 Tell me how I'm going to do this on Save chain. I receive 1000 USD. See right? Yeah, that's the first step. Yeah. So, receiving in our case, you will provide the address and section address which is also non-custodial wallet to your sender. You will receive this 1000. You use DC through your ESL to your use, d.c. address and save chain. And after that, you pretty much don't need to leave search and so you'll be able to enroll for em them real time to the card, will you will be able most likely to pay either by this card or directly. This feels that you need to pay. So the plan is develop the infrastructure around this fort in the same way as it basically exists in your bank where you're transferring these funds and other to pay these bills. So if I got it one thing yeah I got it. Now this is Idle factors for me having done this transaction with these multiple And types of wallets and actually, what is going to end up being two Banks is just down to the fact that this is kind of how I this is my financial life, right? But there are societal factors all over the world that are driving the need for this, what are some of those societal factors?

16:40 And what are the demographics, where these things happening? Where you see the most probably volume driven use cases for Save chain in the next year or two? Yeah, we go to the right now, wait list from 65 countries, and we are starting from Argentina right now. Why? Because hip hyperinflation so inflation, Argentina is more than 100 percent and there was just last week, the day when it was 8% currency devaluation just in one day. So it's, it's yeah, it's a not, not controlled and you can hit open deposit like you. Today is deposited in Tina for like, 30 percent annual rate. So, it's going. Yeah, it's going crazy and the people.

17:22 Too much. The live from door economy there. Yes. So they they cannot really rely on the net on the currency. They try to change the door as soon as possible as soon as they get it so countries like that. This is how I core markets so Argentina, it's 100% when you sell a hundred fifty percent inflation in Nigeria, they have like a currency crisis as well as an addition Tina. They have to exchange rates. So the presence of to exchange rates, this is this, this is a sign that this is our Market, because there is like a fish oil change. Great. And there is like a real exchange rate. So official change rate like an Argentina versus like a straight exchange rates to times difference. And street street exchange rate is the code blue door, right?

18:05 So it's two times higher. So so those countries they are definitely our markets and then there is like there is a special situation in Brazil where also there is a taxation of capital withdrawal. And if you go with Brazilian cards to yes like a shopping for shopping, you pay Top of all your purchases. And, yes, taxes. You pay like almost 7% to Brazil taxes for Capital withdrawals from Brazil. You can send money from Brazil to. Yes, it's 1.2% X. So for Swift if you buy stable going to Brazil with 0.3% X is 20 times cheaper than if you just go and shopping with the card. Yes. So all this all these examples, this is where we're stable coins and make sense. I'm thinking of this pitch deck, Exercise that that we went through yesterday.

18:56 Yeah. When you get to your team slide that you need to talk about what we did, what we know what we learned, what experience we have. And as you're walking me through through these inflation rates in these taxation rates, and these transaction fees. And these different markets, I'm thinking, you know, your stuff. Yeah, I met those people. I know this from like from the first hands from the people who agree. Shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When everything is operating in symmetry in between the non-custodial, stable phone wallet, or let you know, or let's just call it a stable, coin wallet and the FDIC insured US bank account which one of those.

19:42 Do you think based upon your view of the world right now is going to get more the volume and more the usage? Yeah. Yeah. So we have a wallet as our Core is the first part of the product is pretty much our minimum commercial product here right now, the world. And in addition to the world, we are offering for residents of 55, countries US bank account. So we are doing this. Where are our banking service? Partner called synapse in San Francisco so I believe like the tractor e, how it's going to be growing. Its will be like similar to PayPal PayPal when they started. They were like noun for, as a way to pay.

20:22 You be so nobody like really consider it PayPal is like way to keep their money, save money to do anything else. The just the go and simply pay. Anyway yeah. So in this case, like also many people like the beginning to consider us and we'll consider is like way too cheaply. We're going to we're going to basically provide three remittance to 1,000 or from with zero fees and money to their countries and and way, how they can open US bank account probably, like, outside of their countries for their families. But down the road, we want to build the behavior as soon as they will be more and more trust and the see like some other product that we're going to release, but when I build this Behavior, so not just used us as a vehicle, but keep funds with us and start to use us as a real like noncustodial financial institution. So so key parts of the system and and don't leave. Yeah.

21:15 Yeah. And there's a something in there that I was thinking about between serving the unbanked and serving the underbanked Right unbanked versus underbanked on bank to me is that you operate fully with cash and that's just how you live your financial life under Bank means. Well you may have a bank account but you can't do a whole heck of a lot with it. So what I hear you saying is that by offering the ability to have more flexible payment options by having the ability to actually hold and save your wealth would save chain at these interesting interest rates you do I actually provide more banking to those that are underbanked, right? And that's yes, the basic sides.

22:00 Yeah. It's yeah, exactly. And the for their Bank towards underbanked like, it's this is why. Sometimes, for me, it's difficult to explain the people that just like an indie, as they just fully American and never do not travel too much and live here because they don't see this problem for them. It's like everything. Let's move. Yeah, everything. The, Click as a sin ID walked by. And I mean, I am Yes, already likes all together six years, but if I'm and the bank, yes, I went back. I'm the banker dies. This just a simple example. And then, like, if I, if I try to open for my company bank accounts here, it took me like four, five banks. Because before I found the bandage agreed to open bank accounts for me India's, so it's like with having all the documents.

22:45 So it's not, it's not easy. Yeah. And and and I'm fully documented, like, in the like, well, documents in the S, and there are many people don't have it document. That I have and they're the bad bad situation. So so we have been building the service for the people who are underbanked with the in terms of like access to like modern Western Finance more than yes products. And it does yet they live in the SS diaspora or they'll leave for like anywhere in the world but still basically the financial be Global the problem with custodial institution and the banks, but all of them locally governed, they are not Global and to kind of to break that as a parent company, have more. To be Global because he took a guards and it's more like already Global protocol.

23:27 So to build a real Global Neo Bank, you need to give away of the custody, you need to give away like all as something that regulated only locally, which is like a story of custody as soon as we are basically and don't have this element. Then we have much higher chances to be like globally, Global financial institutions. Could you at some stage, almost a money market sweep? Is that you could overnight convert the USDA The u.s. DC and then place that out into D, Phi at attractive overnight rates. Yeah. Yeah, there is a circle which is issuer Market maker of use d.c., they have this products. Okay, they have was taking over night. Yeah, the problem with the rate is there, if I'm not mistaken, it's like half percent per year. So it's between that much.

24:12 Yeah. It's not. It's not why you would rather be in stable. Currents. But there is like other products, there is like, so right now, the treasury bills. The give you more interest. And if I yes, so Okay, we are looking for like taking nice treasury bills to give people access to like the to something. You know, the Apple introduced recently. There's famous saving account back by Goldman Sachs for, for 4.70% beliefs, which is like already look like meaningfully. And those kind of account. This is exactly what we want to do as well, but we want this to be like in the talking form and Global and most flexible. So we're looking right now for this partner like some big-name where we, where we can basically take the stack, nice products for Our customers. Okay if you call Goldman Sachs we should recycle let's get them on the horn.

25:01 Absolutely but like that right that you've got so many challenges being thrown at you and I know that you know your US market strategy like you said there's lots of interest in this in the u.s. because of what's happening with the regional Banks. But that that is a I think that's a story that is still being written, right? But You've got this regulation by enforcement going on with the SEC and anything that is crypto and stable coins. Obviously our cryptographically secure dassit so I'll just call them that you've got you know, you got your go-to-market strategies in geographies with the concentration of underbanked individuals and you don't live in Argentina or Nigeria, you'll be relying on Partners, they're right, you've got, you know, working with in Tech Partners to integrate your Tech all of these, you know, maybe it's one of those things.

25:52 Things. Maybe it's something else but you know which of those challenges do you think you have the biggest handle on and you know which ones do you think are just going to be a tough call? Yeah, initially initially I thought that the most difficult will be like to go all those markets where I'm not from and this is the comment that I'm received life from any we season. The yes, they call it, we call them. We talked to them and said we go to Mexico, go to like Argentina on a jury. They said, oh guys, you don't have this DNA in your team DNA. This means you don't have like a Mexican During guy in your team and then I find out when I start to talk to those people that is they not exactly right. They're wrong. Because when I talked to like the people in Argentina and they said and we are discussing like yes. And they said, oh yeah, you know, you like how long you do as they ask me as I do?

26:40 I'm six years old. I still like, pretty much like Ukrainian. And you now, that is like, in dies everything, according to the books, and like, they try to do like everything, like her to the books, like a rules and here, like, it's more. It's It's more like more experience base and all that and practices and and this is exactly pretty much many of these countries. They're pretty very similar to Ukraine Franco speaking and I thought this would be like a big cultural Gap now like this. Why many my friends like the living wall discount? Just making businesses there because their culture. Their business culture is very similar. It's much easier for me to understand this culture, then like four Americans. So this was like, so that's why this kind of DNA Gap was not a gap so it's completely manageable. Yeah, the man, the man challenge right now. It's yeah.

27:26 It's obviously like u.s. regulation and we come to understand how this works, but it still requires a lot of experience and experience people around build momentum and to build like history. So we don't want to be completely dependent on that so we can see the raven like to keep intact business in the yes, but keep like a Computing device business outside of here. So maybe in some moment this would be like two different companies now. But But yeah, it should be done. And right now we rely on our partnership. So we good Partnerships recently like do to thanks. Thanks to you Pete and textures. So I got with us with stripe and stripe is right now we're in the sandbox to to do on the rain pick and of ramping.

28:08 So basically to enable our users from all the 50 states of the yes, and each state has different regulations require a separate license which is like a couple years of work. So all this is going to be done with stripe. Yes, tribal take out there because they already have this licenses. Yeah. So which is, which is a big deal. Yeah. Because otherwise, it's just, it's a big, big, big per year to enter your smart. Yeah. And there's at a severe I'm working on that is related to the whole Money Services business in the US that actually, the European translation of that is called a vast. But virtual assets service provider. Yeah, because the MSB, you know, framework was just pre crypto and it was there and then it was like, well, that looks like the right thing. NG to do for crypto for those businesses that are moving into and out of crypto and into an out of Fiat. And then lo and behold, we end up with a specific regime in Europe.

29:03 That is just dedicated to crypto around those types of movement. So I think, you know, being able to partner with people like stripe and and and others to be able to help you do. This is a good thing. I may have already pointed to this, but I think there's probably more to this story of Igor. And on that note, one of the things that I Preparing for this Igor. Is that on your LinkedIn profile? You are Igor Gary Kamel. And I've been calling you Igor the whole time since day one. And then I'm like, yeah, you like Americans just call him Gary. Some where'd that come from? That was some Americans do. So it's like a Gary is it's like a nickname.

29:44 So when the people come to, yes, I like a Genies are famous for that. They're taking like, American names. Yeah, and like ukrainians not know. Not really, but some do. There is like famous eager which is Gary here. Gary we remember Chuck, we his famous and energy Community. Yeah. Gary vaynerchuk. Yeah. Yeah. He's also. You gotta react his own. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I'll see you. Okay. Okay, he was like it. Yeah. It's like a 16 year old. Entrepreneur way back in the day with wind.com before vaynermedia and all that stuff came along. That's pretty cool, right? Yeah. So the so there is there is like some best practices. So some examples. I yeah, I might in some moment I wanted to use Gary and then like understand that just like it's more about. So looks like eager is more authentic. So I want to probably stay with bigger right now. Okay, Michael.

30:34 All right, no, I'm cool with that. I'm cool with that. But tell me there's a, you know, from your experience. There's got to be discerned secret, write this thing that, you know, and that you believe to be true, that others may not be aware of, or others believe to be false. Can you point to something that you think is your earned secret that makes a difference? Yeah, they're in, there is not very probably the main secret like in terms of business. So the people if they want to save money they wanna like real take about the money. They not just rely on regulate we have. So they need to also rely on technology and so I'm offering them. This is like Choice. Yeah. So which is and we are trying to basically improve this value. Proposition by adding insurance for this non-custodial Words which is makes more sense you're covered by both technology and by lichens.

31:23 Social insurance. This is like the best of the wall. So this is one of the secret and terms of like behavioral. Yeah, I moved this winter to to South Africa. So I start to exercise like and another to like, cut more energy for the business. So and I'm doing snows snowboarder here and I learned it's all about momentum. It and this momentum could be even if you this momentum is negative at the moment. But you have the speed, which is like in snowball. This means you can change and you can go up and it's It's very important to move. Yeah. So even if you are, maybe moving not exactly where you need to move, but you have the momentum and with the small effort, you can move to the right direction and get your goal.

32:05 So, okay to also keep moving. Keep moving, keep moving. Yeah, keep moving. Now you get that definitely get that through snowboarding. Yeah. It was I was in the one in some moment like we recently fast neither am I talkin with fully diluted market, cap was like 1 billion dollar so it was like, yeah. Two weeks. Two weeks. Yeah. And and then everything crashed and it was depressed like a couple years that I lost like billionaire like all that. Yeah and then I understand this is not this is just basically, it's bad idea to stop. Yes, you need just keep moving and indecent since he was at that hate. It's definitely you can come back. Yeah definitely I mean at the lowest moment of my own career it's probably about four years ago and I everything just crashed and stopped and but I still had a bunch of things that were yelling at me to do things.

32:59 Yes and I just let it all drop to the floor and I only picked up those things that were really screaming at me. The loudest and I ran with those things and I just kept running right? And you know sometimes you just have to do that. What would be one thing that people wouldn't expect to know about you? Mister snowboarder? Wouldn't expect About Me. Maybe the deck of a journalist degree. Okay. All right. Where's that come from? How did you do that? Yeah my mother was a like an journalism and like a literature. So she was said that I need to and I kind of I like it at the time and by the way without but they're in the journalists as well. Like it's his first profession like he was running so it's good for public. Speaking can good for like a soft skill development so absolutely, yeah I did.

33:48 This degree in parallel with my Physics degree. So, what's happened? I was like, studied physics and then like go to the train and Purity minutes. I had like night classes from 6 to 9 p.m. like for Joe for journalists. So it's like develop both sides of my mind, okay? All right, that that's pretty cool. I did my stint with writing in 2006 2000. 2005. 2006, when I was traveling around the world with my fiance at the time, Between leaving Bermuda and settling here in Ireland. I wrote a Blog and my mom was reading it every day and she was pointing out all the grammatical errors I was making and that's how I learn to write better, right? Was just when you've got someone looking over your shoulder. And so, yeah, your mom was a journalist and my mom was a teacher.

34:41 So, that's something that's common craft for us, to just learning how to write properly. Yeah, exactly. Because I thought of good stuff. And what's the best way for people to get in touch with the Igor? Yeah, the best way is its defensive grip. That people still a gram. It's Bank stuff. So yeah, bankster. Yeah. You male, you go read some chain.com. Yeah. Whoo and Linkedin. LinkedIn, I'm kind of like I had like big to my big LinkedIn to 10,000 for so I definitely will find me everywhere. Definitely in the industry like it say that my first or second Circle everybody If you are not in my second Circle, you're not in the industries. It's amazing how that works.

35:24 Isn't it scary scary. You can get in touch with whoever you want. Just one degree of separation. That's it. Exactly. He's like all right, we'll listen Igor. Thank you so much. Awesome, to have you on the show and looking forward to seeing you next week in London, see if it That does it for this week folks. Thanks to eager for opening up his mind, to help us figure out why he does what he does. And you can learn more about Igor and save chain in the show notes on our website money, never sleeps. That IE, if you like what you heard, please leave us a rating and, or review on Apple podcast or Spotify. Is that helps others to find the show. Thanks to Conan Brophy from Great Sound for mixing and editing. This episode, Conan is an excellent medium and to get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast. As for me, I'm an early stage, startup investor focused on where fintech meets crypto and crypto Meats. F3 and I lead the techstars web through accelerator. There are plenty of links in the show notes on money, never sleeps that IE on how to get in touch. So don't hesitate to reach out finally till next time, thanks for listening.

36:23 See you