221: First Chain | Greg Hannam, Peerkat, and the Power of NFT Data

0:10 Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend in this is money, never sleeps. We look inside the mind to entrepreneurs, and at the crossover of startups, Enterprise Finance, technology and Life. As we know it, before we dive into this week's episode of money, never sleeps, just a quick heads-up, that the eith Dublin. Hackathon 2023 is on this weekend from May 26 to the 28th at Dogpatch labs in Dublin. Keith Dublin's of First web three, Focus hackathon conducted in Ireland. In the idea is to create a space for the community to build an attract talent to the web through ecosystem. Check out the details on eith doubling that io on the show this week. We've got Greg, Hannum co-founder and CEO of pure cat. One of the twelve founding teams forming the techstars web through accelerator class of 2023. Pure cat is a data analytics tool for marketers to help them understand their users, increase engagement and drive growth in there.

0:54 With three strategies, pure cat combines multiple data sources with machine learning to connect the dots between To and web three and provide powerful insights into user Behavior across disparate platforms. Before co-founding, peer cat with Ben Marshall and I Chi women, a Greg's Roots. Bring them back to mechanical, engineering at the University of Leeds, before diving, headfirst into deep data analytics, product management, and then working with a number of VC back. Deep Tech startups in the a eyes face, developing product, growth and operations functions in this episode. Greg, connects the dots for us on how his life experiences, drove him toward the pier Cat Vision before we dive into what Pierre cat. Is all about right now, in the value of the platform delivers to businesses. Moving from web to into web 3.

1:35 We also go down the rabbit hole into how the usage of the technical construct. That is a non fungible token or nft has evolved since 2017 where it's all going and how pure cat will capture the growth before finishing with some life lessons and insights from Greg. All right here on money, never sleeps. I'm never surprised at the back. Stories of people that I have on the show because we've had so many different types of people on this show. Greg, and I knew yours, obviously, coming into this chat because, you know, we've invested in pure cat in your business, right? So we did take a good hard look at at your past and what I'd like for you to connect the dots instead of me, okay? And that I picked out a few things that were interesting to me.

2:30 To share with others around scouting mechanical engineering, deep data analytics, business intelligence, Venture building, which is pretty interesting. And now, co-founder and CEO appear cat. Tell me how you connect the dots and why this, all makes sense. Greg Hannah? Yeah, it's funny looking back. I think Steve Jobs said follow what your intuition says or follow your interests and then, Like they have to connect the dots at the time, but looking back, I sort of path. Emerges scouting is very far back. I mean, I started that six years old, I think and I went right through the organization right into. I was leading a group that had anywhere between 70 to 100 scouts at any one time I was, you know, looking at how to take them on hiking, go camping with them so much organization. And yeah, I really learned some great lessons in sort of Leadership in how you can have a good control over any given situation chaos erupts, anytime a load of kids, do that many kids get together and I think that's really helped me in later life to sort of lead teams.

3:44 And yeah, it's sort of still using those skills to these debt to this day. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And is the motto still be prepared. I was a scout. Yes. Yeah, it is be prepared and I, yeah, I still live by that. I always check the weather before I go out. Well Trent muscle memory there as we say in Ireland there's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing. Yeah, right, so be prepared. Yeah. Falls forward quite a lot mechanical engineering at University. That's an interesting one because originally I was going to go in for economics and I turned up at the at Warwick University I think it was and I went to the economics talk. They were doing that their introduction to it and then I went to the engineering talk and the economics one was quite like Like verbal and didn't have many examples of what they were going to do. It was all just talk through engineering, they got us instantly playing in like the wave machine and stuff like that, and I was actually, this sounds a lot more fun. So I ended up doing engineering switching off economics. Very glad I did.

4:48 It's funny that wave machine thing. It must have sparked something, because I ended up specializing in something, called computational fluid dynamics, which is the study of fluids environments. So, when you see the red ball, Jason called with the slip streams and stuff mapped out over the wings. That's the sort of simulations that I was doing. So is really heavy on data? I looked at everything from data centers startups. Looking at how you could use, convection, currents to cool big memory boards and I did some work for GSK looking at how you could inspect syringes and this was pre covid and I think became quite well using it during covid. How you could inspect syringes for defects because they have all these Pre-filled medical syringes going through of every different vaccine?

5:34 And yeah, they needed to understand if there's any defects in that. So wow, all that processing, all that data. Sort of gave me a real good background in that. After uni, I tried to get a job in Leeds, actually, which was where I went to University, but I couldn't find anywhere that sort of fit the bill and I ended up back in London, which is where I'm from. I landed in a boutique law consultancy and we helped lawyers understand their finances, a lot better. So really go into that granular. Presenting the information back in business, intelligence dashboards and like I say, just helping them make more money, which you know, it's never that. Yeah, for lawyers. I know. I know yet which I think we talked about this before those two threads there, that my sister had a similar mechanical engineering path is you and with through PhD at MIT and there was a lot of fluid that she talked about a lot of cooling that she talked about in engines and motors and plastic grown engines that all this wonderful kind of stuff.

6:29 So, good connection point there and we can be careful because my mom previously was a lawyer before she became a mediator. So the power of data in law is something that is quite unique. Yeah, it was fascinating that these lawyers, who charge thousands and thousands of pounds per hour still. We're putting together budgets for certain accounts that actually they were going over budget for and, you know, so that the firm as a whole was losing money and yet, you know, they have probably one of the best plane Jobs in the world so it was fascinating to see what data can unlock and as a business how that helps them drive forward. Yes. So that company was like a small consultancy like I said, we always think I was number seven.

7:10 We grew it to 20 over a year and a half or so and then we got Acquired and moving from a 20-person organization to a 200-person organization overnight was quite a big change for me in the grand scheme of things. It's probably nothing but I felt the change. The red tape bureaucracy creep in. I knew it was sort of like a Ticking time for how long I was there in this, a bigger organization. But I learned a huge amount of skills product management, managing multiple stakeholders, all that sort of stuff. And that was really good training for. Okay, how do I actually apply Frameworks to build better faster products and get it out to Market more quickly? So, yeah, that was incredibly valuable time and I picked up the skills. I needed to then go into the Avenger building. Yeah, I met a chap while Was that this bigger company and he was, he said, well, I'm on my sabbatical Kenny interested in startups.

8:06 You also seem interested in startups because I've sort of pitched him on a hardware idea, which we will go into another time. But he said, look, I'm helping these Oxford University, spinouts who have Venture back in, but they can't commercialize that well. So, could you come in and help? And yeah, so I went and did that for two or so years and, yeah, learn again. Learn so much did the Microsoft Roadshow so flew out to It's seven different cities on three different continents pitching. This AI tool, I then went in and help to labeling company. Again, working out there commercialization strategy. So, sort of done the technical bit then did the commercial bit. And I think that's really set me up well, for pick at now, would ya? So where we are, I'm getting there, I'm getting that and that that deep deep deep experience in data and Red Bull Racing Series slip streams, right?

8:58 I don't even want to get into that. And they are huge, huge, huge amounts of data. They're making sense of that and being able to present it to those in Professional Services, understanding organizations in organization size and going from, like you said, seven to 20 to 200 people and seeing how that all happens. And then this diversity of experience across a bunch of different kinds of startups and just helping that. Yeah, all of that is a wonderful boot camp for you to get to the Age of becoming a start-up founder. So tell me how you and Ben and Ike got together to form a cat. Yes. So we actually met at a hackathon in the 2019. We were on the last one in team as they call it will complete Randomness.

9:46 We didn't have a team. And so, yeah, we sort of formed around Ben who happened to be having to be there for the initial kickoff. I think he had to go and Pitch. An idea. When in fact, it came with two ideas, he pitched one, which he was Volcano, which was actively working on, and he pitched a second, which everyone else like. So unfortunately, had to give up the one he liked and we went and worked on a live streaming idea which yeah, we we built throughout the hackathon, it was like a two-week thing. We won that and then went on to win, many more hackathons and stuff. I think that quite quickly realized who would work in the team and who wouldn't. So, I think that hackathon had seven people, we actually whittled it down to four and and they've become the co-founders. And okay.

10:30 And what was the live stream idea? Why do you think it won the heck of that? I think it was novel. It was like, uber for live streaming if that makes don't say, Uber for anything ever, but the concept was that you could drop a pin on a map. So, the Hong Kong protests were quite big at the time and we wanted a uncensor abroad live stream from that part of the world. And in exchange you would send micro payments the other way. So it was sort of like a I need to know this information. Now, I want an unbiased view of it. Is anyone in the area? Yes, I am. Okay, sort of a bit like a gig economy so that's why I drew the comparison. And why do you think that it, you wrapped it up?

11:13 Why didn't you guys pursue that? What was the lesson that came out of that? Yes. So that was interesting. They're sort of yeah, frou-frou building those. There was a couple of lessons. We actually learn one was incentives. Don't necessarily mean good business. So we Were on a evm chain called Thunder core, which we deployed this app to we had sixty six thousand users in 188 countries. I was just disappointed that we didn't get anyone in the Vatican City using it. Okay? The reason why we were able to do that was we offered to thunder tokens to jump on and try out the app, do a couple of actions and then jump off. And well what happened was people then jumped off and then didn't come back so they claim the tokens and that was it. So we got all these users but the retention was just horrible and That we realized actually we need to build for a problem. That is sort of consistent.

12:04 It's going to happen every day and make people want to come back to the to the app and to interact with us. So I think there was a real big learning from that video live streaming. It was far too, serendipitous. Yeah. Plus yeah. You can't be passive and yeah. Pass. If there's a company, Natick switch is a techstars company and they're putting cameras on the dashboard people's cars. Okay, and basically mapping the world in 3D well, and that if you have the camera then and you recording and you're submitting your video, whatever you filmed, you get the micro payments back, the form of a Tillman interesting, right? So it's totally passive, is just you're driving around. You turn the camera on your map in the world. Yeah. And I got all excited about that. There's a couple years ago, I was talking to them and I'm like, oh my God, you're like designing a real world metaverse with 3D and they're like, yeah, we could do that but not sure that's the number one laughter.

12:57 Yeah Pete. So anyway, No, that that's it. These lessons learned that you get out of this. And then you see somebody else doing something similar. A couple years down the road. How did all of this morph than into pure cat? Yes. So, after we scrapped that idea and there was a bit of soul-searching, we realized that as a team, this sort of social media, sort of play wasn't what we had envisioned. So we actually ended up doing a couple of Grants just to keep the team going. Build out a few things. We were interested in the first one was on something called into Ledger protocol that, Was the micropayments technology we were using so we got a grant from something called grab the web that gave us enough standing to then go ahead and get a grant from the Exile PL foundation. So we got one Grant from them to build out open-source minting software and as we were building that and delivering it, we realized that actually there's a much more pressing matter which brands who are getting into the space, couldn't make sense of the data that was coming back so you know, web 30 Is a vision of like highly engaged communities of super fans and a load of Brands brought brought in to their credit launched in various initiatives to yet, get closer to their fans than ever before. As the hype faded though, I think we've started see marketing teams getting asked about Roi to justify their ongoing, spend in terms of a real world example to understand what's going on.

14:25 Over a Persona, we call Alice, she's the head of marketing at a brand and Has been put in charge of overseeing, their web three effort. However, with the recent negative press the exec team has asked for presentation on the ongoing investment, Alice wants to combine quantitative and qualitative data. So taking any token, gated interaction with one chain and social data qualitative is okay. At the moment, we have quite good tools to understand where to, to monitor social media chatter. However, when you look at quantitative, you probably have to hire in like a web 3. Data scientist, which there aren't a lot of in the world to Wrangle the data structure, it and extract any insights. Even after all that, you'd then have to go through and work out if there's any links between your web to people and your web three people.

15:12 And so yeah, it's just a real sticky problem. Getting to that Roi answer in a parallel world. Alice has already bought pickup, which has done a lot of the hard work, combining multiple data sources with machine learning to connect the dots between web to and we're 3. And we feed that data into the Till she's already familiar with HubSpot Salesforce that sort of thing. So in doing so we give marketers the ability to answer their bosses prove the ROI and winning web three. We think that's a really powerful idea to help proliferate the technology. Okay, cool. And and maybe just to pull on that thread a little bit Greg that the data that that you can mine out of blockchains because that's what this is right. And that you can present some Actionable insights and on a user by user basis.

16:03 Yeah you know give us an example of the value the deliverable to Alice. Right? What what is she looking at? What is she consuming? And how does she then turn that into something that is worth pursuing? Yes. So at the moment, people hang out in their third space, the Twitter, the disk called brands have a lever that they can pull to try and it sort of incentivize that. So they spend money in social media to promote, Note the new nft drop stuff like that, they then launch the project and people go in and buy the nft S and then they do stuff with that unchain. Now, what where the missing link is at the moment is connecting the social media output, the spend their, okay? So the on chain activity, I sort of frame it as cost per value as a sort of that was saying that's not mine. Yeah, definitely borrowed it from somewhere. And the credit to that person, whoever they may be, whoever they may be.

16:58 But yeah, this idea of okay. I can pull this lever and put in put in here, spend on social media influencers on ads. And on the other side, I get on chain activity, people engaging, that's what we're looking at. Making that link. Okay, okay. And the last thing I want to do here and I may delete this what I listen back and I'm not happy with it is to draw an inference to anything having to do with gambling, okay? Because I think someone in the UK, the FCA or treasury, or someone came out recently and said something about crypto and gambling. We're good. We'll talk about nft. He's more a bit in a second but that Matt McAllister. Shout out to him. He is the co-founder and CEO of a business called mortgage propeller.

17:41 But in a previous life, he was with Paddy Power Betfair, right? And he explained to me how they could tie their social media spent on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, whatever, to their six-month, future revenue and say, if they spent X now in Months that would result in y in revenue and just because of the way people respond to add the way they see things in social media, click get engaged, whatever. Yeah and it sounds like you're pursuing a similar path here. Yeah for sure it's a Brave New World from ox's in a way where three-step stepping into the unknown.

18:21 I mean we've seen multiple people fail. It, Porsche Chevy those guys. Yeah, they're launches went down really badly. Yeah. And so, I think, yeah, there's probably two parts to it, maybe the gambling, the gambling guys did what we're looking to do. So, you know, Lincoln, what people do in that third space to the on chain value. That's the same thing. I think we're Brands will take it is It might not necessarily be value, that they're trying to drive. It might be brand reputation, and value is a measure of that. So it'll be interesting to see what comes out in the wash when people look at it and go, okay, this is actually data point that I need gambling's quite specific, so yeah, I know, I know and it's probably a terrible analogy, but, you know, and one that I didn't want to draw any, any relation to because of where we're going with that, have teased, but I'm seeing this connectivity between The way that companies and Brands advertise these days on social media and the data that is available on that to a connectivity.

19:29 With unchain data. For when these brands are engaging, Gia tokens via non fungible tokens and FTS With Their audience with their super fans as you're saying to then sales results. Yeah. And being able to do the data mining to pull all this together in the same way that you are crunching. And Pounding and churning data in for Red Bull Racing Series going over a slipstream. Yeah. Because it's a huge amount of data that you need to mind here and you get some pretty good data Talent, like Ike your CT 0, to be able to make sense of all this with a machine learning type approach. Yeah, and I think that it, I always think of it as like, the Disney flywheel.

20:13 So they, they spend so much on branding on advertising and then they want people to then, Go and buy the DVD, then they watch the DVDs at home. And then the kids are like, let's go to Disneyland and they go to Disneyland and spend money and buy merch. The Disney flywheel is predicated on LTV long lifetime customer value. Yeah, and yeah, they're gambling analogy does work because for this I prefer the Disney flywheel. Okay, yes. So Disney they are driving LTV. We could look at cost per acquisition of user, all those sorts of other marketing metrics, but the moment performance Marketing doesn't exist in web three so I think we're seeing the birth of this sort of second, a new industry.

20:54 Almost. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, it all been driven and so much. Oh, can I get a Lambo with, you know, the profit I just made on my on my do I want to say board ape. I'm going to say board ape and and risk alienating a few folks. But, you know, whatever on that note, we're going down to really interesting path here during the selection process with techstars. We talked a lot about nft 1.0, which is just that Profile Pics, right? And then moving to NFD 2.0 which is that plus more of a community in a membership, right? Because I feel like I want to be part of this tribe. I want to be part of the crypto Punk's tribe. I want to be part of the board, a tribe. I'm willing to use some of the eith that I've been accumulating over the years to participate in that and to show my badge and to wear my badge that I am part of this community, right. Moving to n ft 3.

21:48 Dato which we talk a lot about things. Such as token, gated experiences both in real life and virtual soulbound tokens, right? Where you are talking more about digital ID. And we're seeing a lot of interesting things happen there. Big Brand loyalty programs, this is all data driven. And this is all, you know, when we were just talking through this connectivity between social media, spend on chain data and brand Revenue, I see all the pieces, Starting to line here. But which one for you, what version of the nft landscape? And like I've said before, I hate using nft right this technology acronym to really describe the space, but it's the best we have because, I think digital collectible to me, not, everything's a digital collectible in the nft space. It's some of this is just becoming middleware, right? So which version of this 1.0 2.0 3.0 are you most attracted to for the long term?

22:48 ERM. And why? Yes, I it's interesting. So, like blockchain started with fungibility and being money. However, NF teas are really what we see as the future. They represent so many more things in our lives than fungible tokens, you know? And and those things like in our lives, you don't necessarily care about the price of. So we think I view point is that, that will go away like constantly watching the price doing the accumulation of Well through and ftes, we think that would be secondary to Brands and loyalty programs. Like you say the nft 3.0 thing because really offers a way for Brands to get closer to their fans.

23:30 We think that will bring more web to people in than any other type of incentive. So we we look at we think this is going to become the dominant form of marketing. The reason why we think that is because brands have a huge amount of intangibles on their balance sheet. I think real pal. Al says it's about seventy four trillion, sin intangibles, and that stuff, like IP brand loyalty, all those things. And then FTS, what? The prices and important. They do actually quantify that for Brands again, going back to our Disney analogy, if we make any of teas for all the Disney stuff and we're able to track that, what sort of market cap would Disney have as a company versus as an NF? T project is a really interesting idea. It really interesting concept, you're talking one of the most Treaty relevant brands in the entire world, probably touched everyone's life across the world, how valuable is that? And I think that's what entities will measure, not that it will get into, you know, that sort of way. We think it will be more of an engagement tool but it's just one one thing to look at how Brands can convert intangibles into tangibles.

24:39 Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. And you got me really thinking deep here today, Greg and no, no, no, it's good, it's good. Might have been a couple of So it's not back before we started recording this, but people may ask and say, all right, you've got this social media spend this way that people engage with Brands and you've got their revenue output on the other end of it, why not? Just connect the two and it's that we have this additional digital link between those two variables in this equation of a brand success and when you look at a loyalty program perhaps that is Tokenized and on chain, where you look at, perhaps a soulbound token that is representative of all of the loyalty programs that I may be a member of, I'd have one token that just automatic, that is dynamic, that automatically gets updated and where I am part of Starbucks or I'm part of Jesus.

25:38 I don't do enough shopping to be able to get where I'm part of the U2 fan club, right? Where I have my, my Boston Red Sox fan club. Right where I have everything accruing to when I take my kids to a Leinster Rugby match. And all of these points that are adding up on this and with the soul bound to occur, that is all just very rich data and with web three that can be anonymous the and that with the rise of zero, knowledge proof sand the technology around that, this is going to kind of quell, the fear that a number of folks that I talked to have about. Well, I'm living my life in all of this in public because all of this on chain data is public.

26:24 I'm like yeah, but at the same time, it can be anonymous and you can prove that you're a certain age just by. Hey, I've got my age in the soulbound token and that I can then authenticate myself without giving away any personal information to the party that needs to know how old I am in order to receive services, or do something like that, right? Or buy a beer for that matter. So, there's this intersection point of all of Love this as well, with this scary thing called Ai and that if we're able to move the world into a framework of their kind of commercial lives being on chain, that it's going to make it a lot easier to fuel, the AI systems programs, algorithms around all of this to deliver.

27:11 Well, even more value for somebody or perhaps even more, you know, the Terminator reality. Which one would you like to go to? And where do you see this becoming a big part of everybody's day? Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I was touched on why the brands might get involved, but you've hit a good point there, which is why consumers might get involved, and I think there's sort of two things there 1n, F, TS give you digital ownership. You said, so burn tokens. This is you in the metaverse effectively and it's all the social signals and stuff wrapped into that, which is fundamental human psychology. The other part of it is every time I always like to think of N ftes and holding in the 50s as sort of the best survey that anyone's ever going to do because you're here going, oh I've got this nft, I've held it for a long time, I'm interested in this. That is such a strong signal for Brands to say oh these are all fans.

28:08 These are real fans and we talked about earlier like what the extra link between the two, what web 3 gives us. If they're holding that nft, we can then look at every time they engage as well, and that engagement is going to be them using their social collateral, their social currency and going in and using their nft to get access to something and that's like real usage. We always talk about vanity metrics versus actual metrics in business, you know, Revenue versus profit two very different things. And I think the same sort of analogy is applied here, like a fan. Actively engaging is probably a little caveat, that probably much more valuable than a fan who is just, you know, on social media talking about it because it's actual real activity. And I think that's, that's where it gets really exciting. So, yeah, we got this great survey, everyone's doing stuff. If you then zoom out of that and you look at all these Anonymous wallets and all the entities, they hold, there's just a fascinating interest graph that forms we saw Tick-Tock the Riser Tick-Tock.

29:15 Why did they win? Why is Twitter so interesting, is that interest graph? I think we're on the precipice of seeing and FTS become you know, a new layer to build really cool products on top and understand people. Even if they are Anonymous through their wallets in such a new way. I just yeah I'm fascinated by the data. So big is really cool. Oh yeah. Oh yeah and I'm think I'm there's another route. All I could go down here and it's called the D Phi Matrix and it's okay, I'm going to stop. Because it's I think it's Wednesday. I always get like this midweek. But listen, you guys learned some pretty valuable lessons in a different variations of this business that you've had over the years.

30:00 In clearly have an excellent picture of where you're going and hopefully all of our list of the hopefully all of our listeners do as well through the Meandering we've done here. But What do you think is the single biggest lesson that you learned so far about with these different variations that you've had of the business? With, with, with I can with Ben. Yeah, I think the single biggest learning for us is go where the people are distribution beats, Cool Tech. You know, we, I've said about that evm chain and, you know, we got 6,000 users. Yeah. And that was because we embedded our Tech into another thing that already had usage. And then, The same.

30:41 Again, goes happened this time where we embedded ANF, a simple nft viewer into a wallet. That's given us five thousand monthly active users, which has succeeded. This database, this idea and really allowed us to test a lot of things. Get rid of the bad ideas quickly when you have users you can do that sort of stuff. And yeah, so my sort of advice from our learnings is embed go to where the people are and From the brand side or business side, you know, embed into the tools, they're already using. It's so painful when you see people spend all this money building out. For example, a new CRM system when hubs for you're not going to unseat HubSpot yep, anytime soon. But from our point of view, you could just plug in because it is just a data.

31:32 And yeah, I think that's probably the biggest piece of advice. I'd give to any sort of startup Founders. Look at how you can play. Nice, don't give away your Competitive Edge. Which is always that thread in the needle with API plays. But yeah, that that's sort of it. Then I'll biggest takeaway. That's a good one. And I'm judging at the eith Dublin hackathon. This weekend. Yeah. On Sunday and I can't wait to ask my questions which are, okay. So talk to me about your customers, talk to me about your users because so much focus is when it's at the earliest stages of creation, it's like I had this idea to create this really awesome thing. And you get passion and energy about it.

32:13 But then okay. What about the users? Who's going to do that, right? Go to where the people are. Yeah, love that. Love that. If you had a time machine Greg and you could go to the Future to visit your 50 year old self. I just turned 50, right? Congrats. Thank you. Everyone saying, congrats like like, like I've made it this far, it's my life, but if you could visit your 50 year old self, right? What do you think the words of wisdom that you're 50 year? Old self would give to today's Greg, Hannum. Yeah, I thought about this and I came up with lean in and enjoy the process.

32:57 Classic example of this the other day, you put together a panel or nft ownership. It's not something I've ever talked about before. And yeah, I was if super stressful in the moment, I'd literally, you know, wanted to run away. I felt really sick and I don't know if that came across. I hope not. I'll try to keep it. Calm. Keep it collected. He did fine. But yeah. And then after, you know, you're anxious, I think goes right down your heart rate drops. And you think, why is that making that far? So it's like, yeah leaning say yes, we're at this crazy point in history and we sort of touched on different bits here where these next-generation industries are forming a i web three like GreenTech. All these sort of exponential Industries, all these exponential Technologies are coming out at once and if you're not immersed, if you're not willing to put yourself out there and get uncomfortable, I think you'll miss out. You know, when, when when problems arise. I've okay, you've just got a panel. You need to go on.

33:53 You don't know what you're going to say, you know, it's like that. Say thank you for that moment. Okay. Obviously it feels a lot different when you're in that moment. But yeah, it's going to be my advice. Looking back is like, you know, well done for saying yes. The other day you guys asked for a volunteer. I was like okay let's do this. I've no idea what I'm going to say, oh yeah, let's go for it. Oh yeah. Oh my god, do you make a fool of myself? But that's alright. You did. No, you did great. And just so the world knows what Greg Hannum did a couple days ago was that he volunteered to do. Mock negotiation on closing, his round, with David Cohen, the legendary David Cohen. That one of the founders of Tech Stars whose now chairman attack stars. And this is a session that he does for Founder's in each in each term.

34:36 And so we had a bunch of different textures programs all at once, and Greg successfully got David Cohen to commit by by removing the obstacles in David's way, right? Obviously, this is a mock negotiation. We've already, you know, Stars has already invested in a cat so, but that, you know, it bodes well for the following rounds, to see how your performed in that. So that that was that was fantastic. And I, you know, just reflecting on what you just said is, well, Greg what I like to say is that always put yourself into positions that you're completely unqualified for. Like I walked out a BMP power about in 2015 26 2016.

35:17 Yeah, to be exact with dream of becoming a venture investor. I had absolutely no qualification to do any of that besides spirit and passion and drive, right? And it took a few years, but I got there. And, you know, I was completely unqualified to be pursuing that Vision at the point, but you learn, you learn along the way, right? So we've, you know, we talked through scouting earlier and I think thinking about your personality and knowing you a bit. Now Greg and that there's that does explain a lot. I think you're very natural helpful, person, and community building. And those types of traits are coming through, pretty strongly. What would be one thing that people wouldn't expect to know about you, though?

36:05 Yes, I may be a similar vibe to The Scouting thing. I actually took up when I was at University. I took up the vice presidential role in the windsurfing Society. Wow, University, again, piece of advice, for anyone who's heading, there is the time that you can reinvent yourself. You can try all sorts of hats on. I've never done windsurfing before, never even thought about it quite frankly. And then yeah, tried it in the first year, really enjoyed it. There was an opportunity. I said yes, because I try and push myself out. Comfort zone. And yeah, so I ended up being the vice president again. It was a lot of skills that I relied on, in the past salting out group of 30, people going down to Cornwall for like a weekend, where all the windsurfing societies come together and well, not party, but obviously do a very, you know, intentional practice of windsurfing, but yeah, it's just again, it's such an amazing experience and yeah, putting yourself in those situations.

37:01 It's like, one of them and so, yeah, not a lot of people know that I probably also So I'm one of the few Society leaders that didn't actually managed to do the activity. They were leading really, the whole year, it was my third year, there was deadlines every single time that they that we organized a trip. So I ended up sitting on the beach. Sometimes, typing away on the laptop to get the Wow, done. Two hands. I didn't actually get to go windsurfing that you've never been windsurfing. I have been windsurfing, but not in the year. I was vice president of windsurfing Society. So oh my God, our claim to somewhat Fame. Wow, no, no, no. That that is definitely a rarity, you know, it's like no, I don't have an analogy ready for that.

37:44 I don't so Greg. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Yeah, you can find me on Twitter. It's at zero X Greg. Hey, H or email me Greg pick up.com. Listen, Greg, this has been such an enjoyable chat and one that given our relationship to date. I think that this was half expected, half unexpectedly, go down this path. So thank you. I really appreciate you coming out to the show and sharing all of this and looking forward to talking to you wealth. Probably later today. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to speak, really appreciate it.

38:24 That does it for this week folks. Thanks to Greg Hannah bra burning up his mind to help us figure out why he does what he does. You can learn more about Greg, a Cat, the show notes on our website money, never sleeps. That IE, if you like what you heard, please leave us a rating and, or review on Apple podcast or Spotify as it helps others to find the show. Thanks to Kona Brophy, from create sound for mixing and editing. This episode Kona is an excellent medium and get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast. As for me, I'm an early stage, startup investor focused on where fintech meets crypto and crypto meets web 3 and I lead the techstars web three accelerator there. You have links in the show notes on money, never sleeps die and how to get in touch. So don't hesitate to reach out finally till next time, thanks for listening. See you