216: One Tribe | Katerina Bohle Carbonell, TogetherCrew and Web3 Communities

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Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend,
and this is money, never sleeps.

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We look inside the minds of
entrepreneurs and at the

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crossover of startups and our
prize Finance technology and

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Life.
As we know it, before we dive

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into this week's episode of
money, never sleeps.

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Just a quick heads-up that the
eith Dublin hackathon. 2023 is

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just ahead of us in Dublin.
On May 26 to 28 2023 at

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Dogpatch.
Slabs in Dublin.

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If Dublin is a first web, three
focused, hackathon conducted in

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Ireland.
And the idea is to create a

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space for the community to build
and attract talent to the web

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through ecosystem.
Check out the details on eith

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Dublin, dot io on the show.
This week, we've got Katarina,

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bowl carbonell co-lead of
together crew.

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One of the twelve founding teams
forming the techstars web.

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The accelerator some web three
communities fall apart Under

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Pressure others.
Come together stronger together

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crew exist to help build and
grow communities by in.

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Members and stakeholders create
together Katarina's.

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Life's work goes Broad and deep
on how members of teams and

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communities attract engage and
retain new contributors and how

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people collaborate and co-create
within communities, collectively

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known as Network, science with
the Advent of Dow's, or

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decentralized, autonomous
organizations in the last few

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years, and the massive
opportunity to apply Network

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science to web, three
communities.

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Katerina joined up with Daniel
ospina and Ashish congrat a to

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co-lead together crew and 20:22
in this episode Katarina and I

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dig into how our life's work
letter to together crew, what to

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get the crew is doing right now.
The longer term vision for

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together, crew, when virtual
organizations, become the norm

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and the challenges that Katerina
expects, they'll face on the way

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there.
All right here on money.

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Never sleeps.
Katerina, how are you today?

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Hi Pete, thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm doing fine.

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Good good.
Glad to hear it.

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Listen thrilled to be an
investor in together, crew

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through techstars.
But before we dig into together

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crew, you've got a very unique
background and one that has

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crossed over a number of
different paths.

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But all that seemed completely
sensible and logical that you've

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ended up at this point.
What I'd love to do is be able

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to get some of that story out of
you today.

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Because I think it's a great
story worth telling.

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So before we get into together
crew, maybe just tell me about

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what got you excited about web 3
to begin with and what three

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communities in the first place
and how you brought things

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together with a shishun with
Daniel to launch together crew?

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I was thinking about that.
And what thinking about it, I

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remembered a book that I went.
I must have, must have been A

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preteen which told the story
about another preteen, going up,

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the move from primary school to
secondary school and how that

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impacted relationships and the
teacher actually did a social

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network analysis of the class.
And at that time, I didn't know

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that this was a social network
analysis, but it was just

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exercise to Mark out
relationships.

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And by doing this exercise, the
hero of the story.

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Got Clarity on on her community
and a conversation.

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She was part in or not part of.
And she made changes based on

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that and I forgot about the
story and as you do as a teen

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you just kept on living.
And I started doing a master

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thesis in Maastricht in the
Netherlands and I didn't really

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know what to do.
I knew it had to be about

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information sharing because
That's what we do.

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When we talk with each other, we
might not explicitly start a

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conversation in order to
exchange information but at the

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end allowed of conversations are
about sharing.

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What is in your mind?
But you have Edge, what you're

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seeing or what you want to see,
or what you want to read about

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or what you want to learn and
this PS3 and she passed me this

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article that used a specific
method which was social network

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analysis.
I was like this is cool.

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Nobody Else does it?
So let's do this and I so we

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didn't do nothing about it.
I didn't even know what program

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to use.
I was thinking about just using

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the normal stats program wounds
hurt.

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Somebody pointed out this is not
going to work.

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You have to change a different
program and that really was the

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beginning, and I never looked
back at looking at the world in

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a different way.
So, the main idea of network

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signs, I reached for me, is that
everything happens between A

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peek but and normally if you if
you study human being so I have

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a social science background, he
started human beings.

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You study the being or the team,
the community completely

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forgetting that there's
something happening in between

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the people and So that's that's
what I do.

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Make him fascinated about this
like kind of like like why does

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p to talk with me and why not
like oh how can I get P to talk

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to somebody else and all these
dynamics that happen within our

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team that and just neglected in
order bottom social science

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studies I saw before and it's
all just study the person or

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study the team but never study
what happens in between the

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people that influences the team
would also influences the

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person.
So, that was why none doing the

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network science.
I did a PhD Team Dynamics and

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along the road.
I was really frustrated with

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Academia.
I saw hypocrisy in there in that

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we would start in human beings.
What?

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We were not talking to human
beings so I had enough of that

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and said, let's do something
completely different.

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Let's move countries and become
a freelancer.

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And then that gave me the If we
don't to explore, and it also

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gives me the headspace to we dig
more into web tree, whose I

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always heard about it, but as a
single parent with one of her

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jobs, having the time to explore
other things, it's very limited.

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And at 10:00 in the evening,
it's not the right time to

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really learn something.
So, when doing the move, I had

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the chance to do that and really
how to get a coup happened is

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that I saw her.
A leak in our community, about

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our and DOW, which was
described.

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As a nice group of people who
are very friendly where you can

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just go and learn about what I'm
down is not like fine.

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Let's let's begin with that.
I know research, I don't know

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development.
So let's begin with that.

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And in there, I presented myself
as a network scientist and

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that's where the conversation
started because there is so

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many.
So a problem or one of my

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colleagues or the problem in
communities or how to measure.

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Sure the health of communities
as tools that exist currently

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are not using the right data
points to focusing on activity,

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but not on conversation.
And so, we just started talking

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and created a project.
And then No Ali, one year later.

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You know we know here which you
get a cool.

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We started as a group of
strangers that saw the need for

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communities and who saw that the
tools that Community monitors

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and Community leaders, have not
the right ones.

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In order to measure what is
really happening inside the

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communities.
Okay.

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Yeah.
That's deep and I totally get

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that point about When you look
at groups, you're either looking

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at the individual and how they
behave within the group or

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you're looking at the community,
the group overall and not

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thinking too much about the
interactions your time or since

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going back to 2015 in
Maastricht, right?

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Where you were doing research on
adaptive experts and their role

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in communication networks, then
I think the founder and people

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analysts that net nygma was
you're freelancing activity,

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right?
From 2017 to, you know, earlier

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this year people in interaction
team collaboration, you even

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spent some time at and uig,
National University of Ireland

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Galway, which was ucg when I
went and now they've renamed

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themselves University Galway,
you know, knowledge, workers

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organizing projects, attract,
develop, and retain, right?

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All that stuff, Northwestern
University online, faculty doing

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all these things around learning
and organization engagement

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culture and connectivity use of
Social network analysis, all of

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that feels like such deep rich,
research engagement teaching,

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learning that got you to this
point and that it was just,

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let's slide into this Dow,
right?

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Yeah.
And it just Nations little bit.

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Just jump into cold water and
figure out 1000 R and then see

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what happens.
You did a very William some way

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of everything that I did.
So, Fast.

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So thanks for that.
You're welcome.

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No, I mean, it's like I say
usually on these discussions,

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Katerina it's on your LinkedIn
profile for the whole world to

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see.
So that whole background makes

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so much sense and we could
probably get a bit more into

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that, by you kind of telling us
what is together crew.

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Right.
And why is it something the

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world needs right now?
So, on a very expensive, Said,

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down-to-earth level to get a
cool.

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Is a community has Analytics
tool.

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So we're measuring what what is
happening inside your

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communities?
By looking at the frequency and

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quality of conversation at a
higher level, to get a cool, is

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the way it should build
sustainable communities.

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We are measuring different
things.

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We're measuring the structure of
the community.

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Let's say community status, end
up lying social class like there

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are Have a different structure
than communities that are

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centered around a product and
that is okay, but you need to

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know the structure in order to
know if your community is able

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to do the goal that you want to
do.

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So that's one thing that we're
doing underwater thing that

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we're doing is that we're going
into their heads of the people.

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So we're measuring do to
actually feel connected to the

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community because like web tree
is about ownership.

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So then if you are specifically
a whim tree, Munechika do your

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community members feel that they
actually hold the community or I

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calling it and Community.
But is actually just an

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audience, which is kind of like,
you just put a label on it that

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is currently hyped and
therefore, you know that he

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called it.
A community people won't see it

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more positively than it actually
is, but you can call it a

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community, but if you're not
treating it, like it like it is

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a community, it will show in the
structure so it would show it.

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In the metrics.
And we're also showing how

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members feel about in
communities on a higher level,

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that's what we're doing.
Kind of given you, we're showing

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you what is happening inside of
it and what are what are the

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actionable steps that a
community manager can take based

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upon the information and
analytics that together career

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providing?
So for example when measuring

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decentralization in web tree
blockchain people know what it

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is but they often think about
the technology.

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If you apply the same concept to
community, so to human beings,

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what we measure in is who is
influential in your community

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and then I have to bring in
another concept which is kind of

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web tree.
It is permission legs and

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everybody can do everything and
everything's open, why?

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This might be true on this
screen is in.

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I discard you have, let's say a
thousand messages are they?

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I don't know who has the time to
read them on.

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And this goes back to To thank
the Sciences.

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If you, you need to be in
conversation in order to

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influence people and be
influenced by them.

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So if you know the structure,
you know how decent relies you

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community is therefore you know
who's in reality calling the

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shots like you can call yourself
a decent voice Community.

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You can be permission as you can
have.

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You cannot know everybody inside
your community but if it's only

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three people were kind of
influential in it but being

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Fast.
You are not decentralized, no

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matter how much you calling and
that's one thing we're

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measuring.
So we can clearly, we can give

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you the names of the people who
are guided all the conversations

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and then you can take actions on
that.

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And certain communities need to
be more centralized or in

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communities don't, but you need
to know what you want.

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And you need to know where you
are right now.

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Oh yeah.
I mean, it's critically

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important.
Right?

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And that you know, for the The
unknown Crescent in web 32.

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So everyone knows the Dow is a
decentralized autonomous

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organization and we have a
thesis around virtual

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organizations and about how
critical they will become.

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There is a long path for us to
all travel on.

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We're virtual societies are
going to become the norm on this

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planet.
But before we get to Virtual

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societies, we need to get the
virtual organizations and that

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the Dow decentralized
autonomous.

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Innovation, if you take that,
that experiment really that's

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been operating for the last
number of years and you hold

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that up to what is a virtual
organization?

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I'm not defining that.
I don't think we can.

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It's just that.
Is it a current day?

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Formation of a company?
Is it a community?

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00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,600
It is a club, is it, you know, a
combination of those three

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things and the current Dow
framework right now is that

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going to play out?
Is that going to be What will

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00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,000
embody virtual organizations in
5, 10 15 years times, don't

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know, perhaps it will perhaps it
will not.

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But I think the big question is
around those first.

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Two words of the of the phrase
is decentralized.

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Is it decentralized?
And is it autonomous and that

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when you're managing a community
that is a dhow.

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Those are the types of things
that you're concerned about,

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right?
Do we have a sufficient degree

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of decentralization here because
there are some, there's some

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impacts if you're not.
Especially if you're an

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investment out and then
autonomous right?

253
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,900
Is this can you demonstrate that
this community just operates?

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00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:09,400
Well, autonomously, and that you
have no single group within the

255
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community that is calling all
the shots, right?

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Then it isn't truly autonomous,
and it isn't truly

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decentralized.
So, these are all things that as

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virtual organizations, in the
path, to Virtual organizations

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unfold, where you don't need to
have this.

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Egg.
And this is a word that only

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entered into my lexicon Katarina
when I left the corporate world,

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but the word of corporatism,
right?

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And all of the complications
that brings to how communities

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behave.
There is a big grander Vision

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here, in terms of how
organizations will live in the

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virtual world and that's why
we're part of this journey with

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00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,500
you.
It along roundabout way.

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00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,100
You know, what does the world
look like when together crew is

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00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,600
an absolute necessity?
What is your vision for?

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00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,100
How the world's going to unfold
with this?

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00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:09,800
It is a world with co-creation
is essential to everything and

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00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:15,100
to your point before co-creation
already happens within

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traditional organizations but it
is not valued as that.

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There is still a lot of scorn it
when tape around it or and

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00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,000
politics.
Oh yeah.

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00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,300
That I'm not talking about
politics today.

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00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:32,500
I had enough of that enough
well.

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00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:36,800
So So, the difficult thing about
co-creation is that it's hard to

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00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,700
say, when does my work end and
your work start.

280
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:47,400
But he goes come into play and
we need to be okay with saying,

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00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:52,000
this is our work or also be okay
to say, you know what, like this

282
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,600
sentence, I really, really feel
this sentence belongs to me, and

283
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,600
I want to get credit for that
sentence.

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00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600
So, I take an example from
Academia, like, find started

285
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,599
with another, Individual work
like people we're exploring

286
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:10,400
alone and then over time we had
more and more knowledge.

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00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,300
So people started working
together and then what we know

288
00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:19,099
half as for certain papers it's
clearly marked who did what

289
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:22,800
part, for example, Katerina did
methods and people the

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00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,700
introduction and you know,
Daniel one of my co-founder, it

291
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:31,400
did the conclusion and she's
check the tyrian stuff like that

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00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:34,600
in order to give credits.
Buddy wanted to be credited for

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00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,200
their work at to do it and that
gives you an ultra list which is

294
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,000
huge, which then impacts your
promotion, because promotion is

295
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,100
based on articles, but then
also, in what position of the

296
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:54,000
ultra list, your name is and
it's just a messy way of working

297
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,400
together and making sure that
people get credited for the work

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00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,300
that they did.
And people agree that while this

299
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:06,800
is, Is works or let's just give
credit to the whole team.

300
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,100
So there's a balance between
saying, this is my work and this

301
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:15,700
is our work.
And in future, I hope this this

302
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,900
will be more comfortable with
the balance.

303
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:24,500
I think there's a lot to learn
on how to interact with people

304
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,800
and how that may be the
interaction will never be

305
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,000
efficient and optimized and kind
of the best ever.

306
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,000
Our and that is also, okay.
So there's a science or

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00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,100
Community billions of Science of
conversation that Isn't yet

308
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,500
fully clear.
We're trying to bring this in

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00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:45,600
with together.
Cool.

310
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,300
And potentially, the answer is
that there are several answers

311
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,500
and that's that's also okay, so
it's not black and white.

312
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:59,700
Okay, I'm with you.
So let me see if I can piece

313
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,300
together an example, right?
So you gave a great example.

314
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:07,400
They're from an academic
perspective in that, you know,

315
00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:11,500
with me and you and Ashish and
Daniel, all contributing to a

316
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:15,600
work, a paper, a thesis
development, a code base,

317
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,500
whatever.
And that you can properly say,

318
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,900
well Katarina was responsible
for this.

319
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,700
She was responsible for that.
Daniel was responsible for the

320
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:29,400
other And Pete did that, when
you bring that into a commercial

321
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:35,500
Enterprise where you've got
people developing tons of work

322
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:40,800
analysis, the, the heavy-duty
coding alongside the software

323
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,600
engineering to figure out, even
what problem to solve the

324
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,500
business analysis to, how are we
going to turn that into

325
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,300
something that our product
management team can work within

326
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:50,900
the product management team
turning that into?

327
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:54,000
How is this something we can
sell the marketing folks getting

328
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,700
involved.
It all that, you know.

329
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,200
So that would be a very
corporate example right now.

330
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,600
On the Dow front, we have things
popping up that are, you know,

331
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:05,700
do you want to go down the route
of links?

332
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,700
Dow, which is a golf, Dow, and
buying golf courses.

333
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,300
Yes, you can.
Just maybe want to give an

334
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:16,200
example of an existing Dow that
you'd say, listen, we've looked

335
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,700
at without with either naming it
or without naming.

336
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:21,400
It was saying, listen, you know,
let's look at some of the

337
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,800
interactions here and how people
are contributing.

338
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:26,100
We have investment doubt.
We have Community Dows.

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00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:30,000
We have cultural Dows.
Is there there one that you can

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00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,700
point to, to kind of give it a
descriptive to say, how this

341
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:34,100
will?
How this can all work?

342
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,700
Maybe cheese?
Okay, I'll give it a try.

343
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:41,400
We looked at 1 dou it was a
larger one.

344
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:48,100
And what we saw was that the
community really relied on tree

345
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:51,400
people answering all the
questions because most people

346
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:55,400
came joined the community.
Had a question on the The left.

347
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,300
So there was a lot of John which
potentially for that case was

348
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:04,700
okay, based on what we saw there
there was no cooperation if

349
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:07,000
there would have been
procreation in this community,

350
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,100
somebody else would have taken
the opportunity to say, okay we

351
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:16,600
have I see the same questions
answered or more or less the

352
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,600
same question I answered every
day.

353
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,100
Tagging, the person who answers
the question, telling them, I'm

354
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,400
going to collect your answers,
you will find them here in an

355
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,700
ocean or whatever.
In a document, this document

356
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:32,200
then is the result of a
co-creation process.

357
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,000
Somebody had the knowledge and
answered questions, but never

358
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,100
had the time to actually collect
those answers and put them in

359
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,200
one document.
And then another person saw this

360
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,200
problem, choked it initiative to
create a document.

361
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,800
That mainly contains the answers
from the A specimen.

362
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,300
So you could assume in a
traditional way, in a

363
00:21:53,308 --> 00:21:55,500
traditional organization, you
could say, what is this?

364
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:58,400
Not cooperation, was, it's just
the answers from person.

365
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,000
Number one, little person,
within a community, answering

366
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,500
all the questions, what we would
be saying?

367
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,400
No, it is Corporation because
you actually have two people

368
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,200
involved in this process.
And that could be reflected in

369
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,100
there, you know, getting credits
to work with it.

370
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,300
I'm with you and you can
incentivize people to create

371
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:20,300
value together.
You can incentivize people to

372
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,700
contribute on their own, but at
least you've got that proper

373
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:26,700
attribution between community
members on who's doing, what?

374
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:30,300
Yes, going back to picking or
when your point on

375
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,900
incentivizing, if somebody then
would see that the person who

376
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:39,400
just collected that the answers
don't get credit for that, that

377
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,700
That act as an incentive for
other people because that's be

378
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:45,700
fine like collecting answers and
putting them in a document.

379
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,800
It's not just complacent.
There's a lot of editing and

380
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,100
summarizing going on.
So there is a lot of work, it

381
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:56,000
takes work on, that should be,
there should be a reward for

382
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,000
that and if other people see
that hard work gets voted in

383
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,000
that Community, they're more
willing to also do a hard work

384
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,800
that is not required or is not
asked by those people who have

385
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,100
started.
Community.

386
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,400
Yep.
I mean you can take you can take

387
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,400
an investment towel, example,
and say that an investment doubt

388
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,100
that is say investing in
startups and investing in web

389
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,100
three startups that says,
alright, well, we've got 20

390
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:28,300
people who have made investments
in startups before are part of

391
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:31,100
the Dow.
You've got probably 40 people

392
00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:34,300
who might not have made an
investment before, but our say

393
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,700
mentors.
And then you've got another 40

394
00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:40,200
people that might have made some
Investments but just Do so on a

395
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,500
kind of ad hoc basis as as an
angel.

396
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:47,100
And so you've got 100 people as
part of this Dow and that when a

397
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:51,500
new opportunity investment
opportunity gets proposed, you

398
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:55,300
throw that opportunity into the
middle of the ring on Discord

399
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,500
more or less.
And people will have a look at

400
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:00,900
the deal.
Usually through a deck of slides

401
00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:04,500
or perhaps a video of the
founder giving a pitch or

402
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:06,500
perhaps just with some sharing
of notes.

403
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,300
And all right, well, let's start
Gathering some insights.

404
00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:12,700
People out of those hundred may
start asking questions.

405
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:15,700
Some may make some statements
based upon what they're seeing

406
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:17,100
on a website.
What they're seeing on their

407
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,700
Twitter following what they're
seeing on anything on, you know

408
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,400
perhaps on that individual web
three projects Discord and

409
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,100
making all of these, you know,
assumptions, making statements

410
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,300
asking more questions.
Someone perhaps is collecting

411
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:37,400
all that maybe collating all of
that, perhaps then engaging with

412
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,000
the founder of the web three
project.

413
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,600
Founder of that startup to say.
All right let's gather some more

414
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,000
questions here.
Let's then bring it back to

415
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,800
this.
Governing Council to say do we

416
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,200
have any last call here
questions in terms of what

417
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,700
people want to know before we
say yes we will invest 100 K us

418
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:58,900
DC into this project, right?
And it that's a ton of detail

419
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,800
that is flying around Discord,
say even they're using a tool

420
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,700
like discourse to manage
proposals, that there's a lot of

421
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:11,600
detail in there and Out of those
hundred people that are part of

422
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,900
that.
Dow maybe some have contributed.

423
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:16,300
A question here, a question
there, others have done some

424
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:20,500
deep analysis and provided a lot
of examples on and perhaps, hey,

425
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:23,700
what's this, you know, what's a
longer-term vision for this

426
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,200
project, how are things are all
going to play out, you know,

427
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,200
maybe someone's written a few
pages on that, you know, when

428
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,600
you could pull that all together
on an ocean, absolutely, and do

429
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,900
proper attribution of who's
doing, what and that when you

430
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:40,000
know that then decides, perhaps
the the share of the The upside,

431
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,000
you know who's done the most
work when it comes to investing

432
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,300
in that, right?
So I'm thinking of a capitalist

433
00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:50,300
commercial opportunity here for
an investment Dow, where tons

434
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:52,200
and most of the Dow activity out
there.

435
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,900
So far has been very
community-based and trying, you

436
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:58,200
know, get those communities
built in a virtual setting, but

437
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,000
I'm expecting that together.
Crew, could likely do some

438
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,100
piecing apart of all of the
communication and information

439
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:10,900
flow that takes place within
yes, even in Out to be able to

440
00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:13,300
provide the insight into who's
doing what now, that becomes

441
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:15,500
particularly important when you
get into the regulatory

442
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:18,300
framework, where you need to
prove that this is truly

443
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:21,300
decentralized.
And there's no one single group

444
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:23,800
or single individual that's
making all the decisions and

445
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,800
that you need to show that it is
truly a community LED decision

446
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,600
here, right?
So am I kind of going down the

447
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,100
right path here?
Yes, you're going down the right

448
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:36,800
path, it is where we are.
Where we want to be heading that

449
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:39,300
you can see the impact one
person.

450
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,400
Had on the community, our
project, we even see the impact

451
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,200
you have or a person has caused
different Community.

452
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,700
See the knowledge that they
carry from one community of 1,

453
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:54,900
dou to another community.
And another that kind of like we

454
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,400
know talking about community
members in a positive light, but

455
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,400
there are also people who Join
or Die or joining community and

456
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,100
completely just destroy it or,
you know, toxic people so you

457
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,800
can follow them and kind of see
all the bodies Our and that Be

458
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:14,000
an impact score that that having
that, so that you don't have to

459
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,800
accept that what you can, as a
community leader, you can

460
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,400
quickly decide that this person
who should actually kick out,

461
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:22,700
which goes against being
permissionless, but that's a

462
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,300
different topic.
The other thought that I had was

463
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,800
that, you know, in that example,
I gave.

464
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:29,900
Yes, you can find the toxic
people.

465
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,600
Yes, you can find individual
contributors, but you can also,

466
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000
perhaps Identify two or three
people that really just vibe off

467
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,400
each other, right?
That we're, you're looking at

468
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,900
the communication between
between those that are part of

469
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,900
the community.
And wow, I just thought about

470
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,800
something the word communication
and the word Community have the

471
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:56,000
same root.
Yes, ha ha ha Latin 101 here on

472
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,200
money.
Never sleeps picking up on the

473
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,500
point.
That you like, finding two

474
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,900
people who vibrated with each
other.

475
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800
We can do that in a month.
Yeah, you can clearly see who

476
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,300
other people going back to.
About crediting, who's doing

477
00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:15,600
wonderful work?
What you can order to do is

478
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,600
finding new leaders within your
community.

479
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,000
Like some people who are have
shown that they can take action

480
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,200
and help your community to go.
And I did there for the

481
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,000
community.
The final thing that I think

482
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,800
would be helpful for dowels and
communities, there's like

483
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,000
important object, awaited
expertise, you mentioned, the

484
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,900
questions people ask, and the
kind of the type of work that

485
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:41,100
you're that.
Somebody can Tribute to to an

486
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,100
investment down before doing the
investment.

487
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:48,100
I think that what we you trouble
own expertise at all leads us to

488
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,300
ask specific questions or needs
us.

489
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:53,600
For example, more to be the
person who summarizes

490
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,200
conversation with a person who
goes into checks in detail.

491
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:02,100
Somebody someone's document if
and of pinpoint order weaknesses

492
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:05,700
in it, indeed, what I would call
Button option, awaited,

493
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,200
expertise and laborers.
Can be derived from the

494
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,600
structure of your community.
So, we have a ground.

495
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,200
We have a degree at universities
or you might not have doesn't

496
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,600
matter.
But that's just one way of

497
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,800
becoming known as the expert in
our area.

498
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,000
The other way to become known as
an expert is through the

499
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,100
conversations you're having and
I'm not going to summarize my

500
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:31,300
PhD right now.
No, no.

501
00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:33,900
Okay, we can link that we can
all go read it, right?

502
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,400
Can we read your thesis?
Of course it's open.

503
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,800
But yes, you can.
It's open.

504
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:41,200
Okay, thank you.
You will have some challenges

505
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:45,900
that get thrown in front of you
Katarina and that what together

506
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:49,800
crew overall are going to have
some challenges thrown at them,

507
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,300
you know, reaching the right
communities that need together,

508
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:56,600
crew the most explaining
together crew to investors

509
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,400
creating value for investors.
Write all of that.

510
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:03,100
How could the way that you face
these challenges, perhaps,

511
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:05,000
change your path?
I know I'm asking you to look a

512
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,200
little bit into a crystal ball
here, but what do you think are

513
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,100
going to be some of the biggest?
First hurdles that together crew

514
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:15,400
will need to surpass.
I think the biggest hurdle is

515
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,600
around data ownership and it
links to identities of people

516
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:22,300
because it's a community
members, were generating the

517
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,100
data, but the way the tool is
currently set up, it is for

518
00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:29,400
Community managers and Community
leaders.

519
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,600
So there is this conflict.
They are that one person

520
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,100
provides the data and another
person use it.

521
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:38,100
So going back to the
conversation.

522
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,700
Not on incentives.
De question that we need to

523
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:45,800
tackle, once is how to reward
people for giving the data.

524
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,400
I think that's one one question,
which might be the easiest one

525
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,500
to answer the other question is
how to make Community managers

526
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:57,900
and leaders comfortable with
sharing their Community Health

527
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:01,900
dashboard with the whole
Community or even Beyond.

528
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,800
Which in a way a website we
might be ideal in place to do

529
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,600
this web tree blockchain.
Thing is visible to everybody.

530
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,300
Why should you currently
healthcorps?

531
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:16,500
Not be visible to everybody.
Even if Inspire, it's no problem

532
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,200
going on right now and three
dancing.

533
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,500
Oh, to get a code it up.
Did, I could be his check with

534
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,000
to get a cool and we are
awesome.

535
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Everybody does that, what would
you ought to go online and say,

536
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,700
are we actually pretty bad right
now and we have lots of work

537
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,300
ahead and I think that's
something that should be

538
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:38,500
happening because it's part of
being in web tree like our It

539
00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:43,000
has score should actually be
lets say, should we should store

540
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,800
it using our web so that it's
there all the time, people can

541
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,300
go back and check your courage.
Your Head score in February was

542
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,300
bad and in March, it was ours.
Oh, you did a lot.

543
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:56,000
You actually invested in your
members and that should be

544
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,100
visible to everybody.
Yeah, an open transparent

545
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:04,000
scoreboard for Community Health
in web three, yes, right.

546
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,000
And that, you know, you're at
the top of the table are you?

547
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,500
Incentivised, you're not even
incentivize but it's just, hey,

548
00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:15,200
this is transparent.
We do want to do better.

549
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:18,400
We do want to keep the community
members, engaging with each

550
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,800
other and find better and new
ways for them to do just that.

551
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,500
And for those communities that
are lagging that.

552
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,400
Hey, do we need to flush this
out?

553
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,100
Do we need to get rid of the
toxic people do?

554
00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:35,000
We need to find a better way to
incentivize contributions here

555
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:39,400
and engagement when on crypto
natives Non wet three natives.

556
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,700
Look at this, it's hard for them
to draw the inferences to say

557
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:48,800
this is how it's going to work
when in the real world but I can

558
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:55,500
totally see the value of this
when you take people out of that

559
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:01,200
corporate setting of creating
value for a corporate group,

560
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:02,200
right?
Yes.

561
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,500
That corporate group has
shareholders but that

562
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:08,000
shareholder concentration is
always looked at a different in

563
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,200
it.
Different light but when you

564
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,100
have a truly Community creation,
a co-creation its contribution

565
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:17,400
to takes place where you can
share value across all the

566
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,200
community members.
You need a way to properly

567
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,300
handle all this.
And that's what I'm I'm hearing.

568
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:29,300
You talk about what is something
that, you know, to be true that

569
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,800
others believe to be false.
This is a question I like to ask

570
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,200
about your earned secret.
Do you have an earned secret

571
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:39,700
from your time?
Walking through and living in

572
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:44,500
this space for as long as you
have, I do have one and it came

573
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:48,000
with a high price.
So there's a lot of stuff that

574
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,100
happens around the people that
you don't know when they join a

575
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,300
community.
What you only see said

576
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:59,700
conversations that they're
having but Having having and

577
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:03,400
still dealing with the
consequences of losing.

578
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:07,500
A loved one made me realize
that.

579
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:14,699
Something like we never leaves
you and you never know when it

580
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:19,600
hits you and I think, when
you're part of the community, if

581
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,500
somebody is suddenly not there
anymore, or if it's not was

582
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:28,900
being less responsive to you in
a way, I know that something

583
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:31,199
happened outside of the
community that you have no

584
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:36,199
control over The person might
not like the community anymore

585
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:40,100
and just decided to this engage
or something else happens.

586
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:43,199
So, check in with people.
That's the main thing.

587
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,400
Give them space chicken.
So find out, what am I

588
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,300
Collins's?
Yeah, no, that's a courageous

589
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:52,300
thing to share Katarina.
So thank you.

590
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,600
I can definitely understand how
you can point to that and say,

591
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:01,700
all right, how are we going to
keep people together, right?

592
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,600
It communication is the absolute
necessity.

593
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,200
What I find myself is that if
every once in a while even I am

594
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,700
a person of few words and when I
start getting into that, she'll

595
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:18,100
that's where you can become
aloof.

596
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:22,500
Lee toxic, if that even makes
sense, you know, that aloofness

597
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:24,800
can be a After it to a
community.

598
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:28,300
And that's something that I look
out for in myself, and, but

599
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:33,100
understanding the depths of loss
and grief, absolutely are a huge

600
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:35,400
component of that.
So thank you for sharing that.

601
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,600
If you can round out this
conversation with me Katarina,

602
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:43,600
we're at the point of the
discussion where I do like to

603
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,600
ask the final last question that
we asked everybody which is what

604
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,400
is one thing that people would
not expect to know about you.

605
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,900
This might sound strange but I'm
able to get angry.

606
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,400
So if you're part of the
community and part up and I

607
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,800
start swearing, you know we are
in deep shit.

608
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:09,700
Let's put on you said shit when
actually whatever comes into my

609
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:16,900
mind so I send someone set up a
bit but especially Yeah.

610
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:22,300
Like I know that I can stay calm
for a long time when things

611
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:27,200
happened, but if you see me that
I'm not coming anymore, that I'm

612
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,000
so glad I started swaying in the
community.

613
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:32,900
We need to really, really,
really look.

614
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:35,300
What is the cause of it and we
need to solve it right now,

615
00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:38,000
right?
People have gone too far, let's

616
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,000
say the whole everything is
falling apart.

617
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,700
I got you, I got you.
So we're going to look out for

618
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:50,100
Katerina cussing and If that is
a health score itself, that's

619
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:53,800
weird.
Yeah, I tend to try to before

620
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,800
the word comes out of my mouth.
At least if I'm speaking

621
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,900
publicly or at least in a big
group of people like I do try to

622
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,300
change, change it to brother
trucker and fustercluck.

623
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,300
But you know, but no, you note
for the future that when I am

624
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:13,200
swearing generally, then I am
quite passionate about something

625
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,900
and or angry.
So yeah.

626
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,800
No, you got to let these
emotions out.

627
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,000
I can get a sense for that
passion, that's there.

628
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,700
So thank you Katerina for
sharing that.

629
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,600
Listen, it's been wonderful
having you on the show.

630
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:27,600
This has been a deep
conversation that I kind of did

631
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,400
expect.
We were going to have but I

632
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,800
didn't know which way it was
going to go.

633
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,500
So thank you for opening up
yourself to having this kind of

634
00:37:35,508 --> 00:37:38,100
chat with me.
And I'm looking forward to

635
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:39,700
seeing great things from
together.

636
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:43,000
Crew, what is the best way for
people to get in touch with you?

637
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,200
So Adam the one who outed me
evens.

638
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,300
Please don't.
But I'm Katarina policy on

639
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,900
Twitter and you can be a medium.
Awesome.

640
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:55,400
Thanks so much Katerina.
Thank you.

641
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,200
That does it for this week folks
thanks to Katarina for opening

642
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,300
up her mind, to help us figure
out why she does what she does.

643
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:07,000
And you can learn more about
Katarina and together crew in

644
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,500
the show notes on our website
money, never sleeps that I eat.

645
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,800
If you like what you heard,
please leave us a rating and a

646
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,700
review on Apple podcast for
Spotify.

647
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:15,200
Is it helps others to find the
show?

648
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,700
Thanks to Kona Brophy from
creates out for mixing and

649
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:20,700
editing this episode, Conan is
an excellent medium and to get

650
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:22,200
in touch with when you're
thinking about launching your

651
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,800
own podcast.
As for me, I'm an early stage,

652
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,200
startup investor focused on
worth in techniques crypto and

653
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,000
crypto.
It's web 3 and I run the

654
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600
techstars web 3 accelerator.
There are plenty of links in the

655
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,700
show notes on money, never
sleeps die and how to get in

656
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:35,800
touch.
So don't hesitate to reach out

657
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,200
finally till next time, thanks
for listening.

658
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:38,700
See you