222: Trust | Javier Tamashiro, Ospree and Crypto Compliance Made Simple

0:10 Hey there, I'm Pete, Townsend in this is money, never sleeps. We look inside the minds of entrepreneurs and at the crossover of startups and our prize Finance technology and Life. As we know it on the show this week, we've got Javier tamashiro co-founder and CEO of osprey. One of the twelve founding teams forming the techstars web three accelerator class of 2023. Osprey is a comprehensive D, hence, avantime money laundering compliance solution for virtual acid. Service providers, that seamlessly integrates customer onboarding blockchain monitoring, and the travel rule with Osprey, institutions and smes serving the crypto and wider. Digital asset markets. Today can significantly reduce false positives benefit from a single point of reference. For travel rule data, transactions, and automate and scale essential compliance operations before founding Osprey with an Winston and yoga, Peloton in 2019.

1:00 Javier's Tour of Duty and Trad, fi included stops, at SP Global Market intelligence Standard, Chartered bank and credit Swiss all of this and business intelligence and Rec Tech type roles and he has been actively involved in blockchain Project since 2014 in this episode Xavier. And I explore the blend of Japanese and Argentinian cultures that made him who he is today. The life experiences that led him to the Osprey Vision. We then dive into crypto market. Growth is a proxy for The Wider growth of digital assets. The role that compliance Solutions can play in opening up the crypto floodgates for institutional Capital. All right here on money, never sleeps. Javi a tamashiro.

1:45 It's a very interesting name. That's a combination of Japanese and Argentinian descent is it not? Yeah. It is essentially, I'm first generation of Japanese immigrants in Argentina and a second or third generation of Italian family, immigrant from Napoli and Naples and Sorrento. That is such a great combination of some of my favorite countries. Well, let me let me back up on that because I absolutely adore Sushi. I absolutely love chimichurri and empanadas. And you know what? I've been to Napoli once and headed right for Amalfi cuz Napoli was not nice but yeah, traffic is terrible.

2:32 It was it was the traffic that put me off Napoli but it's a it's a really interesting combination and what is it about that combination that has made you the individual that you are today, is there something you can point to in that combination of cultures that that's interesting. Well, I mean, you know, there's a lot of things that could be said about that, especially, because, when you think about the kind of the Japanese Society, it's very homogeneous. There's the tournament in Japanese call half full. Is it essentially is a person that is, it's a key that for an interactional couple. So he's a Japanese and a non-japanese, the Keel of a Japanese non-japanese person, right? So I yeah, I don't know.

3:16 I mean, they did a lot of things going on there, but essentially, what I can say is that In my case, my mom is need is essentially very different from my dad because of her rude fraud. In my mom is very emotional. She normally speak very loud, my dad is more quiet and very rational General. I guess that made me the person. I am kind of coexisting with these two very antagonistic, the type of personalities sometimes made, you know, this very funny combination of living in Argentina and also having these two kind of very Clear route, make things very funny for example. Mark, we normally eat Argentinian barbecue with Casado, you need to reassess our chimichurri and also, we mix that with Japanese rice, so it's very strange stuff going on. But yeah, but I think we all went well over the years. I think, people, It's more kind of universal than 40, would you think?

4:16 I'd essentially growing in the side of Argentinian Patagonia, but when I was a teen, I did an exchange program in Japan. I live in a narrow for about one year. I don't know if you're familiar with the Rotary Club, but they have an exchange program. That essentially is trying to develop Global City sense. People that live in different countries and different family. Yeah. And then do when you leave in the form families, like a kid, you realize People is very similar. Of course, there are some differences from a cultural point of view, but as human people tend to be very similar, right? We all suffer the same things. We need lab and this essentially to do not many different that aspect, right? Yeah.

5:01 When we, when we focus on the details, yeah, people is that there might be some differences, but yeah, it's a matter of being tolerant and adapt to the front. So shows he shoes and Ian's totally. Totally knob, just always fascinated with people's upbringings and how were they grew up in the world and whatever their family influence was how that impacted who they became right and there's you know like you said your mother was probably the more perhaps outspoken one and your father being the more rational and reserve one. I had the same thing in my family and that but you know, my dad grew up, what my dad grew up in Argentina for it. Six years, I think I told you this and not really? Yeah, but yeah, back in the 60s.

5:46 So he I think, from the age of 12 to 18 and my mom grew up in Massachusetts outside of Boston and it, wow, way outside of Boston and his town called Athol. It's just a very interesting combination of the two of them. And I look at my own kids and I see a combination of, you know, my wife and me and it's just interesting how the all that continues to pass down. I wanted to get into Osprey in a minute and talk about What Osprey is? But before we do that, looking back at your background, professionally Javi a I could point to this continuing trend of you dealing with data and compliance for your entire professional career. It seems like even during your time that you were building relationships with the ambassador's with the organization of American states.

6:35 Right, I saw on your LinkedIn profile that you had to in quote meet regulatory requirements, right? So this is Ben. Kind of part of your story, your whole working life. And how did this happen? How did you fall into this? Yeah, I think that I always had an interesting data and I have to say that my bachelor's in economics and my master's degree is in data science. I did a master's degree in top university and one semester in Imperial College focus on artificial intelligence. So yeah, so I think Data is all we've always was there and trying to, you know, get the most of data and trying to build intelligent out of that. We need in every company that I've been working in all the frosh.

7:24 There was always components of analytics and implementation of how to provide information that make people's decision. Smarter probably what happened in the last couple years with the company. Is that We identify that there is kind of an opportunity with blockchain because there is a whole industry being built. And essentially there is a gap in this industry. And in a sense of how the compliance is not existing banking can be of light being blockchain right after that comes a lot of elements that I learned at the University that has to do with analytics. Artificial intelligence controls, what I'm doing right now, it connect many dots, right of my career and my Location, my mentor is took University was also called you takamatsu.

8:18 Probably one of the most prominent people in artificial intelligence Japan. He and I learned a lot of things, he kind of build this idea that we can build companies and if I had to say, when a spree started, I think I would say that it started in Japan in that lab. So I started thinking, oh well, I can do a company, right? So this people In this lab or making video games, You're Building applications. So I thought well, let Mia I shouldn't same. Right? So from that point, as soon as I had the opportunity, I started doing some projects. Right? Yeah. Okay. I got it. No. It makes a lot of sense in hearing. You talk about this that bachelor's degree in economics, the Master's in engineering and technology and Ai and data in driving into that in working through the first few rows.

9:09 Your career and then opening up kind of this landscape for you to say well, okay, you've got an idea and that mixed with that idea or Blended in with that idea, is this deep first-hand experience, the problem that you're solving right in on the data side and in the compliance side as well? Like you said, what was that Foundation? Set the scene for me, in terms of how you You and yoga and an got together to start building Osprey ride. So we all met in Singapore. Singapore had the first party that far as no or on crypto of the war.

9:55 But essentially, we got this amazing place from where we were able to test our Initial Ideas. Actually, I'm going to confess something, so would it be before we build it first, product we started Kind of selling reports in PDF reports so it took us like a couple of weeks. So we make a few before is and then we talk to people. Hey, we can do this before for you so you don't need to. Let's say you have your awarding clients and then you can screen wallets and try to identify situation reason we can do that report for you. Right? So we were standing PDF essentially report, we got some traction but essentially a like five years ago, we had this really good.

10:39 Space from where we were able to test many of our issues ideas, the product, and we met through our personal Network. You car was working in potential, I think. Yep, Financial current Appliance and myself. I was working in fast on the charter and then we met on through some friends but essentially we all were sharing the same passion about blockchain and deep divide. You that this whole new area was pretty I mean, right? So did this essentially the idea of all spree started from from our experience, in traditional Finance. So we got involved in a couple of crypto project parking 2015.

11:20 As at the same time, we were working in banking and we kind of smell the opportunity in the sense that, okay? So this is really going to growth and serious money coming to this area. This is going nowhere without compliance because very soon, we will start Gene elements that are critical for the economy. Like, for example, new taxation, foreign policy security may we can go deeper into that, but essentially the day of the whole idea of compliance may be that the terms doesn't sound super sexy but it's at the core of whatever industry. We are believing web three, right? As usual we are in 2023 and he what we see right now is that the same people that is right in Revelation, 4 group toys and same people that Upgrades regulation for tration finance. So we should not be surprised that many things are being designed and developing the same way. Yeah right yeah definitely and I want to come back to that but why don't you give us a deeper dive into what Osprey actually is.

12:28 And why is it something that the world needs right now? Ospreys these slots and compliance data form companies in that are building a business? And they're operating, let's say from Europe, from Singapore, from Hong Kong, or from North America. Very soon that we need to obtain a license to operate because they will be considered as another financial institution, right? And that they need systems and control and they need software. So Osprey is one of the few companies in this segment that is provided infrastructure for this lots of compliance. Maura specifically what you can do with our solution is three things we can. Help you with your digital identity of your clients. You can validate and Grand Illusions. We can help you with transaction. Returning, witching crypto terms, he's blockchain analytics and we can help you essentially, cross-border payments. So it is essentially there is a new requirement called the travel rule for people.

13:28 That is not very familiar with that. The travel is like the sweet Network for crypto and essentially, In the next 2-3 years companies have making transactions between two different countries or even within the same country, they will need to include pii information of their client inside the transaction. Pii is essentially your clients information. Write Your Name, the name personally, identifiable personally identifiable information is that is that is correct, right? So maybe think about when you make our banking transaction and then the bank is after you what is the sweep code and with You need to include. Okay, who is the recipient? What's the the recipient entity?

14:11 Their address, the address, right? So at the end of that process would happen is when the transaction get complete. There is a message that's weak built in the back end. That includes a lot of data allowed, like maybe 50 tails, and those fields include the sender, the receiver PN addresses, entities, involved amount. And that information is being used for Or maybe a few reasons one, it could be sanctioned screening. Also tried a did financial institution will use information to identify. There is any risk element that they need to pay attention and eventually freeze your transaction. So yeah, so are they all all these processes that existing banking? Now are going to be implemented in crypto or slices the space. So maybe back to your question why we are relevant. So essentially these new requirements is creating a huge amount of pressure.

15:05 You These lasted even swim because it is something you have not done before. So there is a lack of technical infrastructure and no bleach skills. It's going to be implemented in being the next couple of months. So of companies are really struggling because essentially a full implementation of these requirements. Good affect your operation cost or even that you may not even if you ever get a license or you may lose your license, right? So it's a really mission-critical. Yeah, not being with you, I'm with you in In hearing you talk about this David kind of reminds me of. I think it was back, 2012, 2013, maybe even a little bit before that with the implementation of derivative trade reporting in Europe, and we're derivative transactions.

15:49 Were previously, what was, you know, kind of call done Swift table. They were not, they did not work with the Swift Network. And so, when you were sending regular transaction messages around whether that was Securities or it was Cash, you could do that all over this twist Network, right? It kind of reminds me that it's not only just for Banking information where it's required, where you need to know, you want to know where the money's coming from, so you can assign it to the right account or where the Securities are coming from, or where it's going to. It's that, from a compliance perspective, you need to be able to report on that stuff, right? So, when you think about what happened with derivatives of people made tons of money, you know, ten years ago on building software to do derivative trade reporting to the different trade repositories and there, and this is a little bit different, right?

16:33 Because this is just a transaction, a crypto. Action going between two crypto service providers, but it's still the same idea that these senders and receivers both need help with how they're going to send and receive the data and also store it make sense of it and report on it right essentially. Yeah. And also maybe it's important to highlight the complexity of these implementation costs. They say, in the European Union, you may have my current relation. Yeah. If people against is no, buddy, you're not familiar with this term from. You can Google and YouTube. Fine. So there's a new a new regulation called me card. That essentially is regulating the whole he's three, but let's say that when you are making transaction between the European Union and Australia or the European Union Singapore, they had multiple jurisdictions that may be implementing controls, or regulating these Flats it at a different speed, right?

17:27 So, all these discussion about the travel rule, it may may happen at different speeds globally, right? So, this increase the complexity, because if you are an Change. For example, in Berlin, are you trying to make a transaction to sell Pablo? And think the exchanging the bomb doesn't have a trial room solution yet. Then you have two options here, you upset your client because the transaction cannot before or you move forward and you may be reaching the local regulation, right? So one of the way we are helping companies is by enabling them to in this transitional period where there would be kind of gray areas so that you can move forward with the payment, even that even if the counterparty doesn't have a Throttle Saloon, At the moment, right?

18:07 So you create a log of transaction that have been initiated with information that you need to show compliance. And when the counterparty identity go live with our travel solution, either Osprey solution or the company Solutions can complete information that is missing, right? Gotcha. Now it's exciting and they because the digital asset landscape is still quite so nascent that there's just so much to build. And, you know, love the fact that you guys are have built this and are now. Now, live with it as well. What did zosky look like when say BTC and ether Bitcoin in etherium are both mainstream Financial assets, right? And I think the, you know, in the u.s. at least the cftc have referred to be TC and eith as Commodities when BTC and he's our mainstream Financial assets. What do you what will last be look like? What do you think?

18:58 It's going to look the same or is this what will offer you become an interesting question. The key value proposition we bring it. Make things easier simplify and then you need. You can have one called Soul one user interface for your compliance team so they don't need to go across different system. The data in the back and is integrated. So you have one API that you can connect. I'm from a commercial point of view. You can have one single contract, but of course that thou depending on the size of your company, having the only one solution may or may not be relevant when we talk. Two tier 1 Banks, the peaches that is slightly different from what when we talk to you smes. So maybe talking out a little bit on tier 1 Banks. What we see is that did ask the the industry evolved into a much larger volumes.

19:52 Let's see, if you are a company that is processing, millions of transaction of these flaccid payments per day very soon there will be a need of a compliance system that is able to process that amount of payments. Very small number of false positive alerts. Right. That's a critical elements in compliance. Because essentially, when you have many transactions, that happened to get blocked immediately that affect your cost, to your aggression cost. So if we don't have a smart system in comp in distress combines, especially if make possible that no Tier 1 Bank Stones, can process and is killed out there. These these possibilities payments, right? So for that, Need a smart system that are able to distinguish. What is a high-risk transaction for my no restriction for that? We need better data and integrate the system. So all this element matters.

20:47 So essentially the front. Big financial institutions are actually growth in the the volume of transaction intake process per time unit, will need to get a smarter right and smart, it means that you can make better decisions with the. You can minimize the number of Errors of the System that essentially is the body position. When we talked to Big institutions, when we talk to smes, what we sell is essentially the integrated platform. The only one. Right? What? I just one, console one API one contract, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're going to need the whole thing. And, you know, with the bigger ones, it's obviously land in expand and land in expand and expand.

21:29 Not only what you're able to do for them right now based upon your current product roadmap but what you will be building down the road as the regulatory landscape of Olives from one jurisdiction to the next, right? So exactly it, you know, on that point Avi a in our first week, in Dublin that you heard me say that, each one of the companies we invested in with this techstars web 3 class, right? That that each company fit our investment thesis in some way shape, or form, really, in their own unique way. And that I tell your story that I tell you all that story at some stage and I think you asked, It specifically you like Pete. What was that? What was that point? Right? And though you know Above All Else we'd like you and Ann and yucca as a founding team but beyond it we saw Osprey is something that could unlock the trillions of dollars of institutional Capital sitting on the sidelines right now of crypto.

22:26 And but I think there's also another thing there which is a spot Bitcoin and spot aetherium ETF but the SEC See in the US or showing no signs of abating on that. And while a couple of years ago, I think it could have been a quicker time line. I think with with the with a regulatory rhetoric going on in the u.s. right now, it's going to be a little while. So some people that I talked to about Osprey before we pull the trigger of investing in you guys were like, what the hell does ragtag have to do with web three and I'm like, hold on, let me tell you so that if we want to grow web 3, we need to bring web to users and institutions on board. And the only way to do that, That is in a way that makes the uninitiated feel safe.

23:10 So regulated assets like ETFs can do that. Obviously, but also simple and scalable crypto. Compliance can make these institutions feel safe and so that they can build trust with their own customers in digital assets. I think we're going to need both right, I think we're going to see this great unlock of institutional Capital coming in. Through ETFs. I can that's only going to be a five to seven year Journey though. Because what's going to happen is that That big bump of institutional Capital coming in will afford the development of even better ux that will point out to these institutions. They don't actually need an ETF to hold crypto to hold digital assets. They can just do it themselves right now, it's too complicated for them. It can be far simpler but I think that the compliance side of this is absolutely critical to help us get there. What do you think the crypto industry needs to get us from about 1 trillion in value that we have right now in Tiptoe up to say, 10 trillion plus by the year say 20 30? Yeah, okay, and so maybe let me go Box new wonderful, my previous point.

24:16 It wasn't when we started this company and we peaked companies in this space. There was this kind of idea especially coming from CEOs. That blockchain will be the financial industry banks will disappear and everything going to be conquered by blockchain. So again, so we are in 2023 and nothing like that happen and join us after what happened last year with FTX. You know, there is a growing consensus that regulations and compliance is going to help to go somewhere, right? So essentially part of our peaches that we are at kind of the enablers of the industry. We are building bridges between the tiny in each industry into a massive industry. I think you said three trillion dollar is 1 trillion Cointreau Ian.

25:03 It was a peak of three nowadays, one, and I would like to see it go to 10. I think that would be the next Plateau for a little while, right? So did the, I think that D I think is super simple. I mean, just not do it's not going to come, fix it to you, is that he's all getting to that game. You feel have clear rules as simple as that. So essentially what compliance can bring to the table is help institutional layer for wealthy. People at the feeling to see about web 3 and blockchain, we are essentially been The trust, right? And I just give you an example that my face, it probably is very sure of it. Five years ago when, if you were a crypto company leading anything like let's say a nice and I co or payments or tokenization and you try to open a bank account, okay?

25:51 It wasn't possible, right? Because you are immediately when you say it locked in, you were in it. You have many red flags and that created a lot of fiction and problems, right. Essentially. What would we think? It could take the direct and compliance can be these these common ground. This common language that tration of finance and Diesel lasted can understand each other Ryan. So let's unlock the whole financial industry with this new industry. And also let's bring all the the world that exists in creation of financials into this space, right? We should not fight that we should bring this lasted to the center of the system.

26:32 We are essentially. Beating new financial instruments. So when that happened automatically, this is connected to key element of the economy, like taxation foreign policy, security justice. So how forcefully we can truly be ill something big. If we don't have that as part of the equation, director is not a massive industry. We have combines, these will bring a lot of challenges. So essentially, we are here to facilitate an enabling companies not to fail or make things as and she fed her and Foster. And yes of did week with this is essentially what make us feel super excited about your appealing, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

27:14 No. I think I shared with you before I made that, you know what? One of the parts of my journey with blockchain that started back in 2015 was around, getting very excited about the financial markets and a brand new infrastructure for financial markets. And then after a couple of years of tracking this and following this and talking institutions about it, that it was Came clear that if we wanted to move traditional financial instruments in to become tokenized assets that if there was going to be a large change management, a large technology project, a large digital transformation project that needed to be undertaken by a number of financial institutions. All at the same time and that is something that takes a lot of political Capital, the top of organizations to do. And it's very, very difficult, just like any other technology change project, you know, there's a long journey with that, right?

28:02 Well, I But so I kind of came back to the instance of well this is a brand new financial asset in the palm of people's hands on their phones. They're going to use it or they're not going to use it and as more and more interest grows in this, the institutions are just going to have to adapt to it. And that over time, I still believe that traditional Financial assets will become tokenized. It's just that it's going to. They will be this kind of intersection point that happens between the everyday use of Digital assets around the world with this Tipping Point, at the institutional level of more assets being in the digital form than being in the analog form.

28:44 I think we will hit that and that you know in order to get there and to get there safely, we're going to need compliance Solutions. So yeah baby chick to our things to say about compliant. What was awesome when we talk to companies to kind of the pts also trying to develop in Co smart that You have an opportunity with compliant because essentially, it's always perceived that we fall into a kind of the cost part of the equation, but thinking the other way. So you are essentially have the chance to build trust with your investors, with your clients, your partner's that your business is going to be sustainable over time. You're not going to be fine. You're going to get the license and your transaction.

29:26 I'm going to go I'm going to go through right at this stage. You should think of violence in a different way. Right. Yeah, so this is this one of the things that can we, we are constantly seen when we talked to companies in the market. Okay, cool. I mean, it's again very much a here now, absolutely necessary with all with everything going on in the crypto markets and everything going on with it with digital assets overall did what you're doing is again, glad you're here thinking about the future if you did have a time machine, right? And I asked Greg hand him this question for the first time last week. That if you could go visit your 60s, Old self and have that chance to talk to your 6 year. Old self about what yourself had gone through over the last number of years. What would be your 60 year old selves words of wisdom? Back to you?

30:16 Yeah. Yeah. Tough question. But maybe I think these question a different way when I was a kid, I wanted to be an entrepreneur that I wanted to be like company. I had these old ideas, what things that could I could develop. So yeah, I'm socially doing water. I dream, right? So I leave you my dream. Very tough Dream by the way. Mmm so yeah I guess that when I became 60 I'm just going to be happy that I took this risk and at the end of the day it's just something kind of feels so philosophical good. When you when you do what you want in a way, you're kind of building a better version of yourself with all the complexity that that means right? But I'm doing what I want, right? So I guess that when I get older I don't see, I won't see that I was missing any opportunity out.

31:08 This is what I want to do, right? So being here and talking to you is what I want to be. Yeah, yeah. No. And I'd say that, that that words of wisdom, then would be back to today's obviate tamashiro from your 6 year. Old self would be Javi. I keep taking risks, right? Yeah, you know, I everyone's got a different risk appetite, that's one of the big things I've learned in being in this space for the last seven years, and just realizing that Eating it and having friends that have stayed within financial institutions, they continue to do that because risk appetite is different, right? And so it's all about how much of that risk? You can bear with building what you want to build well. But then also, you can think about the read, what the definition of risk, maybe the risk is not doing what you want, right?

31:52 So the reasons that maybe you get all, and you've been living a life that you didn't want to. Yeah, that's a good point. Good point. Listen. At the beginning of this chat obviate, we got into a few things about you and some of this obviously that you could piece together from a couple of initial conversations we had and then your LinkedIn profile as well but tell me what would be one thing that we wouldn't expect to know about you? Yeah I mean project it's this connected to this idea of compliance. Something I've seen is that when you work in compliance, maybe people is beginning that you have re you have a very compliance mentality bleep mentality that you always want to. Follow the rules. There is a lot of misunderstanding there. I think that if you are interpreter, you're working in compliance, you're essentially building a system. In my case, I feel like I'm really like a doer. I'd love to do things.

32:45 So yeah, probably people make things because we are in the compliance space like I just want to follow the rules and that's my expectation with anyone that I'm talking and trying to institutionalize people and bring that the system to the whole industry. Maybe something we didn't talk but if Also seeing that something we need to discuss and we have our own opinion. How much compliance and regulations could eventually he'll Innovation. Mmm. Right. So maybe we don't, we don't need to talk about these there but these something that we have our own opinion but it's certainly something that it's important. So we need to have you know: rules and things that help us go Global and it's kale They holding this tree but Innovation should be at the center of the discussion as well, Ryan. Because if the only thing that we are doing is just repeating the same without no new ideas at the center of the discussion. Things get very boring, right?

33:46 Yeah. I mean, I think it's not something will come after it. I mean, you know, you look at the financial markets. You had traditional stocks and bonds and, you know, the development of in the 70s electronic trading, right. And then into the 70s and 80s you had derivative starting to make Make some waves and then that carried through the 90s and then some more financial Engineering in the early 2000s with things like credit, default swaps and those became mainstream and then right around the time we started having hedge fund regulation in 2009-2010, a little thing called Bitcoin came out of the woodwork right in 2009. So and that's now been a journey and I think each step being, you know, and and the the ideas for crypto do go back way before 2009.

34:35 And we could spend a whole episode going down that rabbit hole with crypto specifically, there is a context of that that is an everyday asset used for Commerce at individual and at business level in ahead of us, right? I'll leave it at that. There's also a way for an individual to just completely live their life with crypto and to do that without a bank. Do that through self custody manner. And that, you know, in the same way that people live on cash today. So I think it's a very interesting asset. I think there will be tons more derivatives that come out of this. You are very right and that we cannot let the need for. I don't want to call it compliance to want to call it safety.

35:19 Don't want to call it regulation. They need for for individuals to be protected. You don't want that to stifle Innovation, right? I'm with you on that. What is the best way for people to get in touch with you? Javi a Learn more about Osprey. Well, some people that can connect with us, they can visit the website Osprey Dario. I'm very responsive in LinkedIn, you just need to search my name. Xavier Thomas, she do or you can send me an email. Have your daughter machine? At a speed of 30? I'm also have a Twitter account. You can search me. Yeah, I'm gonna have to talk to anyone. That is interested in what we are doing. I would hope so, it was very good. It was very good, and I know that. All right, we'll listen Javier, thank you so much for Coming out to the show, it's been a great chat and I know I'll be talking to you again.

36:05 Later on. Thank you, thanks for having me. Great, thanks. That does it for this week, folks. Thanks to Xavier for opening up, his mind, to help us figure out why he does what he does. And you can learn more about Xavier and Osprey in the show notes on our website money, never sleeps, that IE, if you like what you heard, please leave us a rating and a review on Apple podcast or Spotify. This helps others to find the show. Thanks to Conan Brophy, from create sound for mixing and editing. This episode Conan is an excellent meeting man to get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast. As for me, I'm an early stage, startup investor focused on where fintech meets crypto and crypto meets web 30. I'll lead the techstars web 3 accelerator. There are plenty of links in the show notes on money, never sleeps die and how to get in touch. So don't hesitate to reach out finally till next time, thanks for listening.

36:51 See you I'll lead the techstars web 3 accelerator. There are plenty of links in the show notes on money, never sleeps die and how to get in touch. So don't hesitate to reach out finally till next time, thanks for listening. See you