226: Pursuit of Happiness | Neal Peters, JR Studio and Giving Game Creators Superpowers

0:11 Hey there, I'm Pete Townsend, and this is money, never sleeps. We look inside the minds of entrepreneurs and the crossover of startups, Enterprise Finance, technology and Life. As we know it on the show this week, we've got Neil Peters, co-founder and CEO of Jr. Studio Jr. Studio is a frictionless web through gaming platform. That gives game creator, two superpowers to build post. Launch manage and grow their games and communities Jr. Studio is also one of the twelve founding teams forming the techstars web three accelerator class of 2023 after launching his first. Business is a 14 year old gamer building websites. Neil spent, 18 years, is an IT architect. And in public-private hybrid Cloud software development and blockchain.

0:51 He also co-founded and led a venture capital business during the last crypto Bull, Run focused on web, three gaming, and NF T's. And that was a step that led him towards getting together with Marco Colosso and Alex kassab ski in 2022 to build what has become Jr studio in this episode Neil and I Riff on his earliest days in Tech and the eventual path that he took with Marko and Alex with j.r. Studio. Before we dive into what Jr studio is now and what it will become. We also get into the long Arc of infrastructure and Innovation will need to get to the Hollywood vision of the metaverse and the role of gaming in that Journey along with what Neil points to in his own development is a Founder that helps to keep things moving. All right here on money. He never sleeps. Neil, how the hell are you doing in Amsterdam today? You're not actually an Amsterdam though, are you? I mean, it's a nice metal heads, and you are wearing a wonderful orange T-shirt today.

1:47 Yeah. Same as, you know, mines read minds. Read. This is my chair Guevara t-shirt that I just pulled out but it's, ya know, I'm close enough. So anyway, but listen, this is the first time that you and I are having the chance to get Deeper into what's going on in your head and what's going on with j.r. Studio? I mean, obviously, we've had lots of chats over the last 12 weeks, but they've been very much to do with things, like, go-to-market strategy, customer interviews, funding, all of that. So, I've been looking forward to this one given. How long that we had been talking since before the yeah, we talked before the program kicked off. We did the accelerator.

2:30 That's where you found us. That's, I don't know how many months ago, oh, it wasn't was refused to say, it was November December timeframe because it was, when the founders boost email went out with a highlight of all the demo day companies, I picked you guys out of that because you're the only web 31 out of like seven or eight different Founders boost programs and shout out to Blake Caldwell who's the CEO and co-founder of Founders boost and also Gene Murphy who was one of his original co-founders, going back a number of years and he's now with a many called bolster and we've been doing a few things with Jean of late, who's a really good guy. So, listen, I wanted to dig in Neil and think about this from the perspective of you had about 18 years of what's the word.

3:22 Fermentation. Fermentation. Maybe being an IT architect in infrastructure, public private hybrid Cloud software development blockchain before you decided to go in the direction that you are now out being a start-up founder, and there's got to be something in there, through your experience, across those 18 years, the kind of points to your Willingness and your inspiration and desire to go. This direction, is there something that you can point to that is notable to you in stands out with your experience of the last number of years? That got you to this point? Yeah I think it started even before I started my career in it I think it was 14 years old.

4:09 I started my own company building websites. That canadaís it was booming business of course, and I really lost the entrepreneurship to help companies basically build websites and do stuff for them. And I was just 14 years old so it was strange doing that next to my school. Of course, I think entrepreneurship killed my school experience. Also a little bit because during day, I was working at the school and then during evenings, I was working for my clients. And next to that, I had a pretty decent gaming career of a highly-placed, Counter-Strike player. So some people say gaming is not entrepreneurship, but I think gaming is entrepreneurship as well because you're building a career in gaming basically.

4:51 So that was 17 when I started my it career, which is for pretty young. Normally people go to college and I chose a different route. I left high school and then was like, okay, I need to do something with my life, so I'm going to work. So, I started off as a server, that's completely. And basically, in those 17, 18 years, I'm doing. I see now, I've worked my way up and a dedication during my work. So, I have a track record of working and educating myself during basically on the job. Yeah, there's something about gaming which is interesting there and I was listening to a podcast as I do recently. I think it was the web 3 breakdowns one that Eric golden does and it was a spinoff of invest like the best that Patrick O'Shaughnessy does and he originally did these web 3 breakdowns and there was I forget who it was but he was talking about speedrunning who's talking about speed, rotting through video games. And the fact that, if you can pick up enough on the patterns of what's going on around you, you can just move very quickly through these games and get to the next level, and the next level, and the next level.

6:03 But it takes that Dedication that Focus that time spent to holding your craft within this game. To do this speed running, to be able to actually move quickly in the startup space, there's a huge amount of Earn recognition. You need to be able to do when you're talking to customers when you're dealing with unexpected situations, being able to pick up on these patterns. Do you think there was that gaming, perhaps gave you this skill with pattern recognition when it comes to behaviors? I think it's a combination, of course, I think gaming started it and my professional career, it even more, I didn't stop gaming in between.

6:45 So I think both of them are making it stronger of interesting. I've never seen this comparison but now I'm thinking of it. It's yeah, it's pretty logical. You know, I love my analogies Neil. Yeah, I love your another just to know. I get that, I get that. And, you know, the really interesting that you started when you were 14 with the websites and that this is kind of just laid this path for everything else. But you do, you did have a very interesting intersection point with all of this where I think your first start with Becoming a start-up founder wasn't necessarily the idea of Jr Studio as it is right now, but was with a predecessor with the letters Jr, which was Jungle race and that you getting together with Marco as well as Ace Alex's. He's referred to I guess professionally. But colloquially if I can say that right, we all call him mace, right?

7:44 Yeah. That what was the point where the three of you got together to start this journey? Yeah, the three of us have to say, I know, Marco for five or six years already, we've worked together for a few book, 10 companies in different roles. And I think it was three years two or three years ago when Marco. And I had the idea to start a community based Venture Capital. We were deeply connected within communities. We would like to have, you know how fundraising Works? Know, we thought we knew how fundraising works. So we started a community based Venture Capital together, we build a community of around 300 300. Vistors active investors, which also amazing is was during the bull run as well. So it was a very active group and that's where we met. Alex, Alex was a Community member for our venture capital and then the bear Market game.

8:32 So in a bear Market community members, don't like investing because they see their money drowning, of course. So Marco and I were like we need to do something else as I said before, I don't like sitting still, I need to move. I need to make progress so Marco and I started jungle race which is an NFC racing game. The reason behind it because we helped 13 NFC racing games or nft games have to say launch in the good market and we see all those games drowning out the market caps of those games, are they really dead? And I don't want to say your Ponzi schemes but we wanted to do a different. We wanted to put on a real fun to play a game. Same as I had with Counter-Strike. If you look at Counter-Strike, now if people are still playing and there are millions of dollars of Revenue, so going through Counter-Strike and we wanted to do something like that.

9:19 We why don't you build a fun game that people would come back to you every day and play it because of so they can reduce stress and have fun. So we started to dribble race and a 50/50 racing game, we build a community, we build an MVP, but in a bear Market it's really really hard to raise money for games. So we said back when each other during that time, by the way, we hooked up Alex, because Marco and I are both non-native English ones. So we rode back story of the game and Alex was reading it. He was like, guys Going to publish this. So you need to redo everything and it was also before chat GPT of course. So Alex did back riding of other characters of the game and that's how we hooked up, Alex, and he helps us with that and he never left our company anymore.

10:04 The during the development of the NFC racing game. We discovered a few issues and I think it was during Founders Bruce when a mentor. He said to us, guys, you want to develop an NFC racing game and after that you want to do a platform but you're encountering issues which you are resolving in your At form. So why are you struggling with the issues that you have now and your wire? You resolving them later, you should resolve them first before you do in a few racing games, it was yet during a pre accelerator, we pivoted and a pre accelerator is intense. You probably know that as well. So pivoting during a pre accelerators, even more intense because you have 12 weeks to complete the program and we were doing a pivot in the middle of the program. It was a really intense time and as a team, it brought us closer together.

10:50 Sure. And really helps us set our mission and vision that we have now. Interesting. Interesting. Who was that that Mentor by the way, if you're free to name, who that was. I forgot his last name because we always call him area, we still keep them updated. He was, he's a founder of a company. Yeah, it's a unicorn company so he knows a lot about tech. He knows something about what 32 was one of the mentor who knew something about web 3 and it really helps us be fitting into J or Studio. What we are now? Okay, interesting that it came from even starting with With jungle race and building that game the impetus for that was because you would already helped 12 projects get their game their nft game live. So it's like okay well why don't we just do one and then where it went back to was helping gaming Studios. Right?

11:42 So you know the I would say the circle is now complete but we're far from the circle being complete meal Peters are we? Yeah Fine Art listen let's dig into To what Jr studio is given that you've teed it up so nicely for us, Neil. And what is it now? And what do you think it will become If you look at Jer Studio, the name, of course, is we had the jungle race games. So the Jr Studios, jungle Ray Studio, we wanted to honor that name because that's how we started it. We present ourselves. Basically, as a gaming studio, providing a platform for Studios over another gaming studio anymore, but we know how to develop a game. We have the experience with it.

12:23 So, what we are doing now, we're developing a platform as a service, for those Studios for gaming Studios, small Indian hybrid Studios. To make sure that they can reduce their development complexity. They don't need a higher stall for a difficult, blockchain Integrations or wallet Integrations, and based on a lot of interviews that we did. We noticed that they also have a lot of issues creating a community, a marker. And I have the experience on creating communities and we know how to build up. So, with our partners, we were like, how can we help those Studios? Because we like to help people, and I think our history shows that if we love to help, come on other companies, skill. And eventually, when other Police kill we will skill ourselves as well by using our platform.

13:05 Gotcha. And I can see where you're all headed with this today right now and probably for the next, you know, six to eighteen months, where you're going with this. What would you like it to be calm in the long run? In the long run, we want to be the go-to platform for gaming Studios. So if you look at that, if you think of dog chain gaming or web three gaming in a few years, you will think. Okay? So we need to go to J or Studio because those guys know how to do the Integrations. It doesn't matter how small or big your game is, you can use our platform and that's our goal. Not to be there only for the small and Indie Studios. But also for the larger Studios, we are the go-to platform for looking gaming.

13:45 I got you. Okay, we were talking. Back a few months ago, one of the things that was quite impressive about you guys, as a team, was at in-depth market analysis that you did was, like, 20 pages and how you were segmenting that market the gaming market and what your targets were going to be Looking Back. Now, on that, compared to all the customer interviews you've done, do you think that your analysis was right? Or how have things evolved, how was your mindset shifted about? Your target market over the last few months. Yeah. So I think the record that you've seen was also short version, we also have a long version of 60 plus Pages. It took us really, it took us months to do the research and the end up research because we lost knowing the market more and more and the more you dig into something, the more information you find in more anything you have to do. And we really love creating the report and the past few weeks we did over 30 or Fishel interviews. And I think Go for it, 50 or 60 Studios. That we spoke also unofficially.

14:52 We were right. Of course, our Focus shifted a little bit from from before when we started text are. So what we are now with the help of all the mentors. So what we're doing now, we're Gathering all the data that we've collected from the interviews, including market research is from finance and several other big Market players to do a new market, research to prove that we were, right? And not only to prove that we were right, but to prove that the market is growing, Living in the market is going to explode even more than this doing. Now I got you, you can expect a new market report in your email soon. Good. Good looking forward to that. One of the things I wanted to talk about as well with you Neil. Is this whole metaverse theme that became a bit overdone in the end of 20 21 and 20 22?

15:37 And I think it was once that people actually entered into what was being called, these metaverse zones, they found it was just like a poorly developed video game with not much going on in Inside these these zones I'll just call them right? And that I think with all the reading I've done though, and my whole view on this space. That I'm pretty convinced that when we eventually get to this Hollywood version of the metaverse that the roads there will have been built by the gaming industry. But the big things we don't have right now. Are the fiber optic cabling that are capable of moving data at twice, the speed of light, which is I have what you need in order to get a message from a piece of data where this instruction coming from a controller in New York, to a server in Hong Kong, right?

16:30 If that's where it may be and, you know infrastructure, right? You know, all this stuff better than me. Yeah. And in order so that you don't have the latency and that latency is described, as when you hit that controller, do you see what's happening on the screen happening? Right away, if you are multiplying, Eyeing that times wearing a VR headset and moving a hat, moving your hand with a haptic glove on it, and trying to have that control the motion on a on a game that is stored on a server that is across the other side of the world. You're just not right now. Technology just isn't there to support this Hollywood version of metaverse. But with how quickly technology is gone over the last number of you know, even the last 10 years I think that we will get there eventually right. But with this Think back to the 70s and 80s with pong with asteroid with Pac-Man, with all these games compared to where we are now with like Fortnight and all these other games. You know, well, I've got to expect that we're going to get there to this Hollywood version, the metaverse and a lot quicker than 40 to 50 years.

17:37 Do you think that gaming is going to play a big role in this? And what is it that gets you most excited about it in terms of, you know, what will get us there? Yeah, so what you started off with in 2020 2021, a lot of companies started in two metaphors and I think the definition of metaphors is really important. So what is metaphors. There were a lot of gaming Studios building an open world where people could enter and do stuff. And I Don't know if that's a meta verse. We've seen companies doing metaphors for shopping, for example. So those are real, world use cases, where in the future, I think, when the technology can pick up, people will use it. How cool would it be if you put on your VR glasses or maybe, maybe they are, you can walk into show, let's say normal clothing shop.

18:27 You can see yourself in a mirror and then you can fit on clothes like see how they are. Actually are there are tools where you can already do it. There are websites where Can fit on clothing for yourself. So I think Virtual Worlds and the metaphors will become and want to say is standard but a lot of people will use it as long as the technology is ready for it. And so far, what I've seen, technology isn't ready for it yet, it's just open worlds and it's not use, widely, not even widely enough, and the technology will pick up. Because in it, I've never seen. So many traction on progress will speed on processor speed. Everything is Going so fast and developments.

19:08 You cannot keep up with the development if you want to do everything. So, yeah, I think eventually gaming will be how I see. It is that you, if you look at Steam, for example, Steamers of publishing platform, ready published games, if steam was able to turn it on to a metaphors and where people can enter steam like virtually and then go walk to to a game section. Let's say adventure games and they can see other players the embalming it with each other. See it in front of my eyes like okay, this will be the next big thing. So not not entering a Lobby or would just suggest entering a Lobby work real people in a metaphor. See it's there will be the next big thing I know for sure if we yeah, yeah, I mean and it comes down to human behavior, right?

19:51 If you think about the 80s and 90s and the early development of video games, this was a waiver for people to spend their free time, right? And that they liked getting into these games and trying to master them or just just playing them for, whatever, for the, for the hell of it, and then with each generational, ship, not even each generational shift, each text shift that we went through in the late 90s and into the early 2000s and then the 2010s, you had a greater population of people on this planet, that were aware of this opportunity, to go spend their free time gaming and that as a tech got better, it attracted more and more people to it and that are Continue, my question for you is a gamer is, are you compelled with each wave of Technology with the opportunity to be more immersed into these Virtual Worlds? Does that opportunity compel you to go spend more? Or are you waiting for this Quantum? Leap?

20:54 To say, I want to be able to use so much more before I actually make that jump. Yeah, I think my generation I'm getting old, of course, I'm 36 years old. I'm hitting my, I'm hitting my 40s, I'm spending more time doing work. Work and doing gaming, but I really think the younger generation, so the generation offer me, we'll hook up with that. I've tried a few metaphors games. I think technology isn't there yet, I will definitely use metaverse when it's more common, when it's more professional. And whenever more players, of course, well, I completely shift from PC gaming, two metaphors gaming, I don't know because I really like using my keyboard and my mouse because I'm good at it. So, it really depends on the usability on the metal. First.

21:36 Yeah, if everyone shifts to the metaphors and why shouldn't I? So it's you need you need to have the proper adoption and the proper technology for it. And you do you do know and and and it's no mistake that the new Apple Vision Pro right? The new Apple VRA our headset does look a lot more similar to the headset sworn in that Hollywood version of the metaverse that I need to stop talking about ready player one and that where it is the mix of VR but also a are because there's the clear glass that you can see through that makes your real world. The The physical world a bit more immersive into the virtual world but then that can zoom off or or shut off and that you're just fully immersed in the virtual world but the things such as haptic gloves to controllers but that new headset that reads with cameras your movements of your hands, right? So perhaps we may not even need haptic gloves to direct where things are going but to feel and experience, right? We've got the vision sorted.

22:45 Because the cameras are now tracking your eyeballs with the newest headsets, so that you don't feel it seasick, as you do, and it feels like a more natural experience. The cameras are tracking your hands smell and taste, perhaps. I don't even want to think about where that's going to go. And I talk with people about that before on this podcast. But, you know, it's and I think you've nailed it with the generation before that, where the keyboard and the mouse, they may not be doing much of that at all keyboard and mouse, right? And they maybe we'll listen if I'm playing a game. It needs to be something that's more immersive. So eventually we're going to get to the point where we either adopt or, you know, we either we adopt the newer Technologies or we just, you know, stay stuck in our ways, right?

23:26 So yeah, I'm with you on this. I think it's the generational shift. And these aren't things that move too quickly, generational shift, take seven eight, ten years to move. So funny that you mention that, because Steve Jobs thinking mentions, the VR, glass 15 or 16 years ago already. So I really believe that apple and apple is like the market leader of change. They started a mobile Revolution with the iPhone, or you don't have a keyboard anymore, but just your screen and it was like, people were like, no, I need a keyboard and it fully shifted, everyone. Even even Grandma's are using a mobile phone without a keyboard. So I think apple is can really set the next Revolution and I think that's why they waited for this long to make sure that the technology was ready, because they have cameras tracking your eyes, they have cameras Tricking your hands, if you look at five six, seven years ago, there wasn't even possible because the speed wasn't enough and I think they've waited so long to make sure that they have a perfect product. And that's there were really sets Apple. They bring out perfect products, of course towards a price that they're asking because it's a normal a normal working guy. Cannot purchase it because it's really expensive but eventually they will set the new new standard. They will.

24:44 You got Me thinking of Star Wars now because I think it was George Lucas, who said that the reason he waited, so long to do, the prequels was because he wanted the technology to catch up to his vision for how he wanted to create those movies. And yeah, Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace, but Tech wasn't there for him to be able to do perhaps what he had in mind, but it's definitely way to get. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. One of the things that will keep you ahead of your time, Neil is experience learning and knowledge, and being able to draw on that leverage that in all of the different situations that you're in. And what I like to talk about is something called your earned secret, right? From your experience.

25:28 Something that, you know, that others either, don't know, and that guides your modus operandi or something that, you know, that others believe to be false and that you just continue on. Is there something that you can point to that? You would call your earn Secret. I don't think I have a specific earn secret. I think it goes back years. I'm a good listener. And I really when people talk to me, I really listen to what they say. And if we look back 10 years ago, I, believe people blindly. I'm like, yeah, you're right. If you say it, then, you're right. The past, 10 years, I stopped believing everyone who said something because I was, like, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong because I've read somewhere else that it's different.

26:11 So, listen to, I think, listen to people, I think the people is very important, but having your own opinion and make sure that your own knowledge overrules stuff that people say, I have a pretty broad technology experience. So I know quite a few bits of tech. So I don't let anyone tell me how Tech works because I know how Tech works and if I don't know it, I will research it myself and I think that's really important. That's what we did with j.r. Studios. Well, we research everything, we did an in-depth market analysis. We did a shitload of interviews with Studios which we partnered up with its doing your own research is really important to make sure that you do something that other people need or like, That's a really good point and I see that in you in that listening and reacting and moving your anything in your the traditional Dutch traits of directness that you think have helped you so far. So far, my team really hates my deduction is because I'm really my mind's like okay, we need to do this and then I say to my team.

27:18 Okay guys, we need to do this now. They're like, yeah, but we have so many other stuff to do it. Yeah, but we don't need to do this. Now, I'm just In the Dutch way of saying it, we need to do it is and the thing my directness really helps us keep moving forward. Of course, I need to adjust myself sometimes because Mark row, he lives in Brazil, and Brazilian people are always warm hearted and soft at eclipse in the US. Or sometimes he can be harsh, and sometimes he can be sweet. He's a, he's a middle. Yeah, he's a really need to adjust myself to make sure that I don't hurt my team's feelings, but it's helping us further and also talking to clients talking to investors being Act short, it really helps a lot. So, let me touch it.

28:00 Does, it does know. And I am always very empathetic towards people and considerate of others. And that, but sometimes that does get in the way of direct constructive feedback rather than trying to gift wrap things too much. My mom used to said, when I was younger. So living a home. That was too sweet for other people. It was like, oh, I will help you with this. Oh, I will help you with that. Didn't someone called me up, was it? Yeah, I need to move tomorrow. Can you help me moving as? Yeah? Sure. No problem. I guess what? All my meetings held moving. So when I was younger, I was a sweet guy. Kind of guy, helping everyone. I still help a lot of people but in, in the years I've learned to be more and when you say more Dutch but more to protect myself and make sure that I get my own goals and not get anyone else's goals.

28:44 Oh, yeah. Well, becoming a father. Your prioritization is change. Yeah, totally they say the true measure of one's wealth is the amount of free time that you spend with your family and friends. Right. Yep. So things do shift and change in that, it definitely gives you perspective on your own prioritization mechanism. Which definitely has shifted for me, which has been, you know, entirely incredible things happen. So, tell me, Neil, we're at the point of the show where I like to ask this. Last final question that we ask of everybody. What is one thing that people wouldn't expect to know about meal, Peters? Wow, that's a difficult question.

29:25 That's a really difficult question. If you look at my professional the professional side, I don't think people like know that, I like to go to festivals and I like to drink beers and I like to party like a madman. It's like, I don't like night festival. So, I'm because I'm a dad. I need to wake up at 6 a.m. in the morning to wake up with my kids. So I really like to go to festivals dance in the Sun and let yourselves. Go to the music and not think of business at all. Just Take the 12 or 8 or 12 hours just to relax, enjoy the music dance, drink beers, and have fun. And it's not many people know that but it's really really important for yourself to let.

30:08 Go at a certain point of time and will energize, of course the next day, you will have a hangover. But today, softer, you feel more energized, you, you'll get new ideas. So it's really, I think, it's important, and not many people know that about me. I think it was Frank Sinatra, who said I feel bad for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best. They're going to feel all day. I don't drink a lot of don't confuse me on that but here you are. You all right? We'll listen to you. What's the best way for people to get in touch with it? So they can go to our website Jr. Dash Studio dot IO or they can send me an email Neil at their Studio that I have awesome.

30:50 Love it. We'll listen Neil. Thanks so much. Much for the chat. It was great to dig into things with you and we'll see you again later on. Thank you for your time. That does it for this week folks. Thanks and healed, Peters for opening up his mind. To help us figure out why he does what he does. You can learn more about Neil than Jr. Studio in the show notes on our website money, never sleeps. That IE, if you like what you heard, please leave us a rating and or review on Apple podcaster Spotify does it helps others to find the show? Thanks to Kona Brophy, from create sound for mixing and editing. This episode, Conan is an excellent medium and to get in touch with when you're thinking about launching your own podcast. As for me, I'm an early stage, startup investor focused on where fintech meets crypto and crypto meets web 39. The textures web through accelerator. There are plenty of links in the show notes on money, never sleeps. .I and how to get in touch. So don't hesitate to reach out finally till next time. Thanks for listening.

31:40 See you