March 13, 2026
Transparency Equals Liability: Why DeFi Strategies Get Copied | Matteo Manzi | Orion Finance (EP. 307)
DeFi transparency means every onchain trade is visible.
Which means the moment a strategy works, the market can copy it.
In this episode of MoneyNeverSleeps, Pete Townsend speaks with Matteo Manzi, co-founder and CEO of Orion Finance, about a structural challenge emerging in onchain asset management: the same transparency that makes blockchain markets verifiable can also expose the intellectual property behind trading strategies.
Matteo describes this tension with a simple phrase: “transparency equals liability.” If every transaction is visible in real time, sophisticated traders — or automated smart contracts — can monitor strategies and replicate trades almost instantly.
Orion Finance is building infrastructure designed to address this problem. The idea draws inspiration from the multi-pod hedge fund model used by firms like Millennium, where multiple trading teams run independent strategies while sharing capital, infrastructure, and execution efficiency.
Matteo calls this concept “Millennium onchain.”
Instead of isolated vaults competing in the open, Orion’s architecture allows strategies to operate within a shared system where trades can be netted internally, capital can be allocated across strategies, and execution costs can be reduced — all while preserving the confidentiality of the underlying trading logic.
Across crypto and traditional finance, the conversation around onchain asset management is beginning to shift from simple tokenized products toward actively managed strategies, capital aggregation platforms, and composable financial infrastructure.
If transparency allows markets to verify what is happening, privacy may be required to make those markets investable.
We cover
• Why transparency can become a liability for trading strategies
• How onchain vault strategies can be copied in real time
• What Matteo means by “Millennium onchain”
• How multi-strategy capital platforms could emerge in DeFi
• Why internal trade crossing and netting improve capital efficiency
• How composable vaults could reshape investment products
Matteo brings a builder’s perspective shaped by designing infrastructure for onchain portfolio management, explaining how privacy, verifiability, and capital efficiency can coexist in the next generation of financial markets.
If you’re a founder, operator, or investor trying to understand how professional asset management may evolve onchain, this episode explores one possible path forward.
⏱️ Chapters
00:00 — Cold open: strategies get copied
00:28 — “Transparency equals liability”
02:40 — Why DeFi strategies leak alpha
04:05 — Orion’s multi-pod architecture
07:05 — “Millennium onchain” explained
10:30 — Composable vault strategies
12:45 — The future of DeFi asset management
For full show notes and guest links, see below.
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🌐 https://www.moneyneversleeps.ie/
#DeFi #OnchainFinance #CryptoMarkets
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And it's basically the moment a
strategy works, the market can
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copy it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
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It's so easy to you have this
tokenize vaults on chain in
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which the manager is submitting
orders from off chain, but the
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transaction on chain is real
time transparent to everyone
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else.
It's trivial to build a smart
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contract that's monitoring the
tokenize fund smart contract and
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just execute the same trade one
block after into another
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tokenize fund, bypassing the
fees.
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This is Money never sleeps.
Sharp riffs, big ideas and real
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insights from smart people.
I'm Pete Townsend.
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Let's go.
Money never sleeps well.
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So joining the show today is
Mateo Manzi, Co founder and CEO
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of Orion Finance, providing on
chain portfolio management
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infrastructure designed for
privacy, compliance and
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verifiability.
Welcome to the show, Mateo.
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Thanks for having me.
Awesome.
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Listen.
It was great to meet you in
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person in Amsterdam at the
Techstars Demo Day.
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After all the mentoring calls
that we did last year, when you
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went on stage that day, you said
something that stuck with me and
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I think it's stuck with a lot of
people in the crowd as well.
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Transparency equals liability.
So what do you mean?
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Would you say transparency
equals liability?
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Yeah, sure.
Well, I have to say that to the
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party proposition of Orion came
from the realization that the
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the on chain asset management
market was maturing.
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It was starting to be able to
not only define on chain
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products for financial market,
but also to actively manage
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products on chain.
However, we noticed this
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contradiction in the fact that
managers have alpha, you know,
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financial markets, we talk about
alpha when we talk about
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information asymmetry or in
general IP asymmetry.
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And because of this asymmetry,
they they have a business model
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that is based on charging
management and performance fee.
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Now the blockchain promise has
been transparency since day one,
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I would say has been
verifiability more than
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transparency.
So because of the only way we
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had before the technology was
mature was full transparency to
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enable verifiability.
We do for granted that in order
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to interact with tokenized
portfolios on chain, one needed
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to be in plain sight of everyone
else.
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Imagine being at a poker table
playing a game of poker and you
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need to bath on your cards.
OK, but you can see your
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everyone else's cards and
everyone can see yours.
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How can you make an intelligent
bet?
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How can you play the game?
So that's another way of
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thinking about it.
That's why for asset managers,
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full transparency is a big
blocker and it's not an
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accident.
I believe that as institutional
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adoption starts to rise, the
words public block chains in
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general, the focus on privacy
starts to become again the
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central attention for crypto.
Absolutely, absolutely.
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And it's basically the moment a
strategy works, the market can
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copy it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
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It's so easy to, you know, you,
you have this tokenized vaults
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on chain in which the manager is
submitting orders from of chain.
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So the IPS of chain, the orders
are generated of chain, but the
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transaction on chain is real
time transparent to everyone
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else.
And so it's it's trivial to
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build a smart contract that's
monitoring the tokenized funds
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smart contract and just execute
the same trade one block after
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into another tokenized fund,
bypassing the fees.
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Yeah, absolutely, which is where
the space is headed, right?
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We've had hedge fund algorithms
for years that are running
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program trading that will
continue to run at the speed of
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light.
But when you're able to move
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just everyday strategies and
more plain vanilla strategies on
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chain that you want to be able
to do this with a degree of,
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well, not transparency, but
privacy.
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What are you building to address
this?
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Yeah.
So we are building the first
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multi pod shop in D5 for asset
management.
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So it's a multi strategy set up
that enables managers to
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tokenize their strategies.
So they're alpha driven
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strategies and being a multi
pod, we are able to preserve the
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confidentiality of the alpha
drive in the allocation.
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The way we do this is partnering
with SAMA on integrating
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advances in cryptography.
There are two fields that run in
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parallel.
We use both of them.
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One is 0 knowledge, one is fully
homomorphic encryption.
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And with 0 knowledge, we are
able to scale the system
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computationally by proving off
chain compute to the on chain
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system.
And so kind of in the spirit of
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ZK or lapse in the ecosystem for
more technical listeners and
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FHE, which is really magic the
first time you hear about it,
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which is this technology that
enables you to do mathematics on
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encrypted numbers.
And so using FHE, we are able to
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have vaults which are like this
tokenized, You can imagine the
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most organized funds.
It's a, it's a, it's one case of
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using Volts by having their NAV.
So their share price evolved
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based on some logic.
We can have the logic be
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encrypted using FHEVM, which is
this protocol built on the FHE
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technology.
And then it's like, again, the
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analogy of the poker game.
Everyone is playing their cards.
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They put the chips on the cards,
but they're hidden.
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And now before doing the
rebalancing, we put all the
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cards together, we shuffle them
and then we can look at them.
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And now looking at them, we can
associate the specific hand to
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the specific bet.
And so in this way, we protect
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the alpha of this specific
manager while maintaining the
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ability to interrupt the with
the Today at least fully
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composable transparent defy
market.
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So at a certain point, we need
to bring back the positions to
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transparency that makes sense
you.
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Do you do?
Yeah.
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It's it's intense.
It's intense.
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And it's, it's thinking about
when you look at the billions,
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if not trillions of transactions
a day, they're going through
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Triad 5 rails in general, which
are entirely private.
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That moving it on chain means
that you know that you want to
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be able to carry over that
privacy with you when it comes
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to asset management structures.
The best example of this that I
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had from my days in the hedge
fund market was Millennium, the
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big multi pod hedge fund.
And that I remember sitting down
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with them to try to figure out
one of their settlement
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strategies around the trading
that they were doing.
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And there was this concept of,
hey, listen, we got 100
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different groups of traders that
are called pods that are
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following different strategies
and they're trading everyday.
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But sometimes one may take one
position on a repo or repurchase
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agreement and someone may take
another position opposite
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position on that same underlying
instrument for the repo.
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And well, for trading efficiency
purposes, you don't want both of
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those trades to hit the market.
You want to cross them.
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But at the same time, for the
purposes of preserving the alpha
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of these strategies or the risk
adjusted return of these
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strategies, you basically you
don't want each POD to know what
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the other one is doing.
So when we first met back in
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August, actually it's probably
July before we did tech stars,
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you said Millennium on chain,
right?
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And that kind of nailed it for
me because I had that strong
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reference point.
For those that may not be as
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deeply involved into this D5
space as you, can you tell us
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what Millennium on Chain really
does mean?
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It also hit a nerve for me when
talking to Millennium back in
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21.
I think something like that
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because the system they managed
to set up and in general
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Millennium is one example.
The multi strategy set up in
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asset management managed to set
up not just the way to harness
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alpha, but a system to to create
the economies of scale when it
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comes to execution operations.
And also, you know, higher level
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questions about how to allocate
capital across boats as well.
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Talking to them about this
concept of netting was very
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fascinating.
So being able to think about
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again, economies of scale that
plays a role in in this in the
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world of defy, not just because
of market orders efficiency, but
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also because of reduced gas
fees.
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You also democratize that by
netting trades.
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And so the idea is very simple.
It's again being able to in in
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the defy space.
People talk about coincidence of
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wants.
So I want something that someone
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else has I want to buy 3 shares
of Tesla and someone else wants
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to sell 2 shares of Tesla and
buy 2 of Apple.
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OK Apple, you may need to go to
the to the to the account,
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whatever you want to buy that.
But with Tesla, we can kind of
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exchange it directly and by this
bartering process, we we can
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save in execution costs slippage
because there's no real market
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impact affecting the price of
the trade.
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And this is very powerful
because creates an economy of
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scale and an incentive for
participants to behave within
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these systems rather than being
small fishes in a big sea that
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makes sense.
So you can still be a small
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fish, but within a big
infrastructure that enables you
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to compete.
So that's one free lunch to get
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out of this privacy preserving
system.
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You get privacy, but you also
get capital efficiency because
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all of a sudden you don't need
to buy and sell as much as you
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would do if you were a lonely
strategist.
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Is there also a benefit to doing
non privacy preserving
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strategies?
For sure.
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I mean this applies regardless
of the privacy layer built on
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top.
Let's say that there is no
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information assignment.
It's just a a basket product
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built on top of of an investment
universe.
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So the S&P 500 is the most
famous example.
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You have the US equity market,
OK, The logic is let's measure
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the market cap of these
instruments.
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Let's pick the top 500.
And then you do a weighted
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average of their returns.
And all of a sudden you have the
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return of an object that doesn't
exist in the individual stock
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components, but it's in some
sense more real.
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So you can still think about
tokenizing basket products and
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defining new cryptocurrency
based financial instruments that
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are defining basket allocations
logics, which are fully driven
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by smart contracts as well.
So the allocation is again, this
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rule I just described on the S&P
500.
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You can do the same with on
chain vaults.
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And you can build funds of funds
vaults of vaults.
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Yeah, on chain by measuring
their DVL and then defining a
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new vault based on that.
That's where I get really
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excited about this stuff.
Is, is, you know, expanding the
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concept right of the vaults to
say that, well, there are tons
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of public equity strategies out
there just but let's just focus
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on equity for a second that
where so many layers exist in
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the infrastructure of hate.
We're going to build this one
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passive strategy representing an
index and then we're going to
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package it up with two or three
others to deliver a specific
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kind of return diversification.
And we might put a future
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overlay on top of that or an
option overlay on top of that or
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an FX overlay on top of that.
And then we may do a fund of
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funds with that with two other
strategies we put together.
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You don't need all those
additional layers when you have
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the vaults, you can just These
are composable vaults that you
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can piece together through the
protocol, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
And at that point, you end up
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with a single token representing
all this layered logic you
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presented.
And then if you want to build an
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AMC, you want to securitize this
instrument, you want to build an
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00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,560
ETP on top of this single token,
then it's operationally, it's,
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00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,960
it's a game.
Definitely.
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00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,680
And why is this model emerging
now?
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00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,120
So I would say one big
component, maybe it's the
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00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,960
biggest is the regulatory
maturity.
215
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,920
We have FINMA led the way in
Europe at least that we have got
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00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,960
things in place, the Genius Act
of course.
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00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,000
So that's big.
That's been a big driver of
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00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,400
institutional adoption towards
technology that the maturity of
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00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,240
the technology is also a big
subject.
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00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,360
FHE was not really feasible
computationally and therefore
221
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,840
gas wise on the Ethereum
blockchain since basically this
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00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:16,160
last summer, summer 25 ZK in
general, that's zero knowledge.
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00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,400
Technology also got extremely
cheap.
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00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,440
And so I would say these two
things together are making the
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00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,920
design space at the same time
richer in terms of what can be
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00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,880
done.
At the same time, you have real
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00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,800
demand also driven by the
increasing volumes of stable
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00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,360
coins and real world assets
coming on chain in being able to
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00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,960
build on top of them a layer
that's about actually managing
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00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,760
these assets, not just about,
yeah.
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00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,960
Fascinating.
And when Orion does work,
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00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,120
Matteo, what does asset
management look like in five
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00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,640
years?
Yeah.
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00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,280
So the good thing will be that
traders won't need to know what
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00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:53,720
they're trading on the
blockchain.
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00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,600
So the obstruction of complexity
has been a focus for us and for
237
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,080
the industry overall in enabling
traders to just connect to a
238
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,320
broker, P5 broker to be able to
have an interface that gives you
239
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,560
paper trading facilities to able
to be able to, you know, have a
240
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,560
sandbox environment to test
strategies and to deploy both
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00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:22,280
actively managed and basket
products that you know, drive
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00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,240
the TPL and I mean that move
capital into on chain rails,
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00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,000
making all of us benefit from
the efficiency of this
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00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,120
technology.
Absolutely.
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00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,360
There's so much opportunity here
and so much potential.
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00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,920
Listen, Mateo, thank you for
joining me today to talk through
247
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,640
this and to tell us about Orion
Finance and the opportunity here
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00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,320
with building Millennium on
Chain.
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00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,760
What's the best way for people
to get in touch with you and
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00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:50,640
learn more about Orion?
Thank you.
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00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,440
Just go to visit orionfinance
dot AI.
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00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,840
You can find our contacts there
and just let's work together.
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00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,360
Awesome.
Thank you so much, Mateo.
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00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,240
Thank you.
Money never sleeps.
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00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:01,840
Well.
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,200
And it's basically the moment a
strategy works, the market can
2
00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,000
copy it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
3
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,320
It's so easy to you have this
tokenize vaults on chain in
4
00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,920
which the manager is submitting
orders from off chain, but the
5
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,040
transaction on chain is real
time transparent to everyone
6
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,000
else.
It's trivial to build a smart
7
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,560
contract that's monitoring the
tokenize fund smart contract and
8
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,720
just execute the same trade one
block after into another
9
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,160
tokenize fund, bypassing the
fees.
10
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,000
This is Money never sleeps.
Sharp riffs, big ideas and real
11
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,120
insights from smart people.
I'm Pete Townsend.
12
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:37,440
Let's go.
Money never sleeps well.
13
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,440
So joining the show today is
Mateo Manzi, Co founder and CEO
14
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,920
of Orion Finance, providing on
chain portfolio management
15
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,200
infrastructure designed for
privacy, compliance and
16
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,920
verifiability.
Welcome to the show, Mateo.
17
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,120
Thanks for having me.
Awesome.
18
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,560
Listen.
It was great to meet you in
19
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,120
person in Amsterdam at the
Techstars Demo Day.
20
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,640
After all the mentoring calls
that we did last year, when you
21
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,280
went on stage that day, you said
something that stuck with me and
22
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,440
I think it's stuck with a lot of
people in the crowd as well.
23
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,360
Transparency equals liability.
So what do you mean?
24
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,960
Would you say transparency
equals liability?
25
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,760
Yeah, sure.
Well, I have to say that to the
26
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,960
party proposition of Orion came
from the realization that the
27
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,800
the on chain asset management
market was maturing.
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00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,040
It was starting to be able to
not only define on chain
29
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,680
products for financial market,
but also to actively manage
30
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,200
products on chain.
However, we noticed this
31
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,080
contradiction in the fact that
managers have alpha, you know,
32
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,120
financial markets, we talk about
alpha when we talk about
33
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,720
information asymmetry or in
general IP asymmetry.
34
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,200
And because of this asymmetry,
they they have a business model
35
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,640
that is based on charging
management and performance fee.
36
00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,400
Now the blockchain promise has
been transparency since day one,
37
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,480
I would say has been
verifiability more than
38
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,480
transparency.
So because of the only way we
39
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,120
had before the technology was
mature was full transparency to
40
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,160
enable verifiability.
We do for granted that in order
41
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,920
to interact with tokenized
portfolios on chain, one needed
42
00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:18,160
to be in plain sight of everyone
else.
43
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,440
Imagine being at a poker table
playing a game of poker and you
44
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,040
need to bath on your cards.
OK, but you can see your
45
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,960
everyone else's cards and
everyone can see yours.
46
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,400
How can you make an intelligent
bet?
47
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,520
How can you play the game?
So that's another way of
48
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,160
thinking about it.
That's why for asset managers,
49
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,600
full transparency is a big
blocker and it's not an
50
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,080
accident.
I believe that as institutional
51
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,680
adoption starts to rise, the
words public block chains in
52
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,440
general, the focus on privacy
starts to become again the
53
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,040
central attention for crypto.
Absolutely, absolutely.
54
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,240
And it's basically the moment a
strategy works, the market can
55
00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,040
copy it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
56
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,920
It's so easy to, you know, you,
you have this tokenized vaults
57
00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:05,640
on chain in which the manager is
submitting orders from of chain.
58
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,480
So the IPS of chain, the orders
are generated of chain, but the
59
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,560
transaction on chain is real
time transparent to everyone
60
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,960
else.
And so it's it's trivial to
61
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,480
build a smart contract that's
monitoring the tokenized funds
62
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,200
smart contract and just execute
the same trade one block after
63
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,000
into another tokenized fund,
bypassing the fees.
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00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,040
Yeah, absolutely, which is where
the space is headed, right?
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00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,160
We've had hedge fund algorithms
for years that are running
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00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,640
program trading that will
continue to run at the speed of
67
00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:35,840
light.
But when you're able to move
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00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,640
just everyday strategies and
more plain vanilla strategies on
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00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,440
chain that you want to be able
to do this with a degree of,
70
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,880
well, not transparency, but
privacy.
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00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:50,760
What are you building to address
this?
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00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,360
Yeah.
So we are building the first
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00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,640
multi pod shop in D5 for asset
management.
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00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,640
So it's a multi strategy set up
that enables managers to
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00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,800
tokenize their strategies.
So they're alpha driven
76
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,120
strategies and being a multi
pod, we are able to preserve the
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00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,720
confidentiality of the alpha
drive in the allocation.
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00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,240
The way we do this is partnering
with SAMA on integrating
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00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,279
advances in cryptography.
There are two fields that run in
80
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:18,760
parallel.
We use both of them.
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00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,560
One is 0 knowledge, one is fully
homomorphic encryption.
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00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,640
And with 0 knowledge, we are
able to scale the system
83
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,160
computationally by proving off
chain compute to the on chain
84
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,600
system.
And so kind of in the spirit of
85
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,360
ZK or lapse in the ecosystem for
more technical listeners and
86
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,120
FHE, which is really magic the
first time you hear about it,
87
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,600
which is this technology that
enables you to do mathematics on
88
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,680
encrypted numbers.
And so using FHE, we are able to
89
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,160
have vaults which are like this
tokenized, You can imagine the
90
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,360
most organized funds.
It's a, it's a, it's one case of
91
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,240
using Volts by having their NAV.
So their share price evolved
92
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,800
based on some logic.
We can have the logic be
93
00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:01,760
encrypted using FHEVM, which is
this protocol built on the FHE
94
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,040
technology.
And then it's like, again, the
95
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,680
analogy of the poker game.
Everyone is playing their cards.
96
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,840
They put the chips on the cards,
but they're hidden.
97
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,080
And now before doing the
rebalancing, we put all the
98
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,000
cards together, we shuffle them
and then we can look at them.
99
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,880
And now looking at them, we can
associate the specific hand to
100
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,200
the specific bet.
And so in this way, we protect
101
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,480
the alpha of this specific
manager while maintaining the
102
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:30,240
ability to interrupt the with
the Today at least fully
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00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,360
composable transparent defy
market.
104
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,160
So at a certain point, we need
to bring back the positions to
105
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,440
transparency that makes sense
you.
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00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:37,960
Do you do?
Yeah.
107
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,680
It's it's intense.
It's intense.
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00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,640
And it's, it's thinking about
when you look at the billions,
109
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,520
if not trillions of transactions
a day, they're going through
110
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,560
Triad 5 rails in general, which
are entirely private.
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00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,640
That moving it on chain means
that you know that you want to
112
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,000
be able to carry over that
privacy with you when it comes
113
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,240
to asset management structures.
The best example of this that I
114
00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,720
had from my days in the hedge
fund market was Millennium, the
115
00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,400
big multi pod hedge fund.
And that I remember sitting down
116
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,600
with them to try to figure out
one of their settlement
117
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,080
strategies around the trading
that they were doing.
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00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:24,200
And there was this concept of,
hey, listen, we got 100
119
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,080
different groups of traders that
are called pods that are
120
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,200
following different strategies
and they're trading everyday.
121
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,800
But sometimes one may take one
position on a repo or repurchase
122
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,520
agreement and someone may take
another position opposite
123
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,240
position on that same underlying
instrument for the repo.
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00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,160
And well, for trading efficiency
purposes, you don't want both of
125
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,400
those trades to hit the market.
You want to cross them.
126
00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:54,600
But at the same time, for the
purposes of preserving the alpha
127
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,320
of these strategies or the risk
adjusted return of these
128
00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,920
strategies, you basically you
don't want each POD to know what
129
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,600
the other one is doing.
So when we first met back in
130
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,560
August, actually it's probably
July before we did tech stars,
131
00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,000
you said Millennium on chain,
right?
132
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,160
And that kind of nailed it for
me because I had that strong
133
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,320
reference point.
For those that may not be as
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00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:26,240
deeply involved into this D5
space as you, can you tell us
135
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,120
what Millennium on Chain really
does mean?
136
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,120
It also hit a nerve for me when
talking to Millennium back in
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00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,360
21.
I think something like that
138
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360
because the system they managed
to set up and in general
139
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,680
Millennium is one example.
The multi strategy set up in
140
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520
asset management managed to set
up not just the way to harness
141
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,200
alpha, but a system to to create
the economies of scale when it
142
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,560
comes to execution operations.
And also, you know, higher level
143
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,840
questions about how to allocate
capital across boats as well.
144
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,720
Talking to them about this
concept of netting was very
145
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,680
fascinating.
So being able to think about
146
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,880
again, economies of scale that
plays a role in in this in the
147
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,520
world of defy, not just because
of market orders efficiency, but
148
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:11,960
also because of reduced gas
fees.
149
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,240
You also democratize that by
netting trades.
150
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,480
And so the idea is very simple.
It's again being able to in in
151
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,480
the defy space.
People talk about coincidence of
152
00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,880
wants.
So I want something that someone
153
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,760
else has I want to buy 3 shares
of Tesla and someone else wants
154
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,560
to sell 2 shares of Tesla and
buy 2 of Apple.
155
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,679
OK Apple, you may need to go to
the to the to the account,
156
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,600
whatever you want to buy that.
But with Tesla, we can kind of
157
00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:45,160
exchange it directly and by this
bartering process, we we can
158
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,560
save in execution costs slippage
because there's no real market
159
00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:50,520
impact affecting the price of
the trade.
160
00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,240
And this is very powerful
because creates an economy of
161
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,720
scale and an incentive for
participants to behave within
162
00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,960
these systems rather than being
small fishes in a big sea that
163
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,600
makes sense.
So you can still be a small
164
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,320
fish, but within a big
infrastructure that enables you
165
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,560
to compete.
So that's one free lunch to get
166
00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:13,080
out of this privacy preserving
system.
167
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,520
You get privacy, but you also
get capital efficiency because
168
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,640
all of a sudden you don't need
to buy and sell as much as you
169
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,000
would do if you were a lonely
strategist.
170
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,560
Is there also a benefit to doing
non privacy preserving
171
00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:30,000
strategies?
For sure.
172
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,400
I mean this applies regardless
of the privacy layer built on
173
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:34,600
top.
Let's say that there is no
174
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,200
information assignment.
It's just a a basket product
175
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,000
built on top of of an investment
universe.
176
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,480
So the S&P 500 is the most
famous example.
177
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,960
You have the US equity market,
OK, The logic is let's measure
178
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,440
the market cap of these
instruments.
179
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,320
Let's pick the top 500.
And then you do a weighted
180
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,160
average of their returns.
And all of a sudden you have the
181
00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,160
return of an object that doesn't
exist in the individual stock
182
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,080
components, but it's in some
sense more real.
183
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,920
So you can still think about
tokenizing basket products and
184
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,800
defining new cryptocurrency
based financial instruments that
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are defining basket allocations
logics, which are fully driven
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by smart contracts as well.
So the allocation is again, this
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rule I just described on the S&P
500.
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You can do the same with on
chain vaults.
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And you can build funds of funds
vaults of vaults.
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Yeah, on chain by measuring
their DVL and then defining a
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new vault based on that.
That's where I get really
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excited about this stuff.
Is, is, you know, expanding the
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concept right of the vaults to
say that, well, there are tons
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of public equity strategies out
there just but let's just focus
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on equity for a second that
where so many layers exist in
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the infrastructure of hate.
We're going to build this one
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passive strategy representing an
index and then we're going to
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package it up with two or three
others to deliver a specific
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kind of return diversification.
And we might put a future
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overlay on top of that or an
option overlay on top of that or
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an FX overlay on top of that.
And then we may do a fund of
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funds with that with two other
strategies we put together.
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You don't need all those
additional layers when you have
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the vaults, you can just These
are composable vaults that you
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can piece together through the
protocol, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
And at that point, you end up
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with a single token representing
all this layered logic you
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presented.
And then if you want to build an
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AMC, you want to securitize this
instrument, you want to build an
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ETP on top of this single token,
then it's operationally, it's,
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it's a game.
Definitely.
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And why is this model emerging
now?
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So I would say one big
component, maybe it's the
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biggest is the regulatory
maturity.
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We have FINMA led the way in
Europe at least that we have got
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things in place, the Genius Act
of course.
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So that's big.
That's been a big driver of
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institutional adoption towards
technology that the maturity of
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the technology is also a big
subject.
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FHE was not really feasible
computationally and therefore
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gas wise on the Ethereum
blockchain since basically this
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last summer, summer 25 ZK in
general, that's zero knowledge.
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Technology also got extremely
cheap.
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And so I would say these two
things together are making the
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design space at the same time
richer in terms of what can be
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done.
At the same time, you have real
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demand also driven by the
increasing volumes of stable
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coins and real world assets
coming on chain in being able to
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build on top of them a layer
that's about actually managing
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these assets, not just about,
yeah.
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Fascinating.
And when Orion does work,
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Matteo, what does asset
management look like in five
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years?
Yeah.
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So the good thing will be that
traders won't need to know what
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they're trading on the
blockchain.
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So the obstruction of complexity
has been a focus for us and for
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the industry overall in enabling
traders to just connect to a
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broker, P5 broker to be able to
have an interface that gives you
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paper trading facilities to able
to be able to, you know, have a
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sandbox environment to test
strategies and to deploy both
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actively managed and basket
products that you know, drive
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the TPL and I mean that move
capital into on chain rails,
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making all of us benefit from
the efficiency of this
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technology.
Absolutely.
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There's so much opportunity here
and so much potential.
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Listen, Mateo, thank you for
joining me today to talk through
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this and to tell us about Orion
Finance and the opportunity here
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with building Millennium on
Chain.
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What's the best way for people
to get in touch with you and
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learn more about Orion?
Thank you.
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Just go to visit orionfinance
dot AI.
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You can find our contacts there
and just let's work together.
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Awesome.
Thank you so much, Mateo.
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Thank you.
Money never sleeps.
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Well.
